15:04 < Smerdyakov> I guess we're starting now. 15:04 < Smerdyakov> Everyone who's participating, please write your HCoop username to the channel now. 15:04 < Smerdyakov> adamc 15:04 < ntk> ntk 15:04 < captain_krunk> megacz 15:04 < Optikal> euclid 15:04 < Kuril> ryan 15:05 < Smerdyakov> Well, we need docelic for sure, and mwolson ought to be here. 15:06 < ntk> docelic is here, i think. 15:06 < ntk> i used to have mwolson's phone number 15:07 < docelic> Yes, hello 15:07 < docelic> docelic 15:08 < Smerdyakov> Hm.. mwolson didn't enter a phone number in the portal. 15:08 < Kuril> whois one of his domains? 15:09 < Kuril> mwolson.org has a phonenumber. 15:09 < ntk> excellent, who is calling? 15:09 < ntk> i am. 15:10 < Smerdyakov> unknown_lamer, say your username or keep silent! 15:10 < ntk> he is sorry he can't take my call right now. 15:11 < ntk> so, we will proceed. 15:11 < unknown_lamer> clinton 15:12 < Smerdyakov> OK. 15:12 < offby1> clinton, 'e a Baddie 15:12 < Smerdyakov> A little bird wrote something about everyone giving "reports," but I don't know if we should follow that. 15:13 < ntk> okay 15:13 < ntk> next then. 15:13 < Smerdyakov> I think a substantial number of members are going to refuse to use the current migration machinery. 15:13 < docelic> Let's deal with the second "chapter" first, then we can conclude with a summarized report 15:14 < Smerdyakov> I'm getting lots of complaints about "HCoop having a horrible user interface," and I think this is coming almost entirely from the requirements for getting an account on the new servers. 15:14 < captain_krunk> Smerdyakov, do you mean fyodor:~/.mire-password? 15:14 < Smerdyakov> Though most of the interface is designed by me, folks are complaining about the thing I'm not involved with, and it's no fun. 15:14 < Smerdyakov> captain_krunk, yes. 15:14 < ntk> isn't there a way to import passwords from shadow? 15:14 < captain_krunk> Smerdyakov, it would be a lot easier on members if all deleuze admins had root on fyodor. 15:14 -!- rudybot [i=offby1@mire.hcoop.net] has joined #hcoop 15:14 * rudybot is comfy in his new home on mire 15:14 -!- rudybot [i=offby1@mire.hcoop.net] has left #hcoop [] 15:14 < Smerdyakov> ntk, it's good to avoid migrating anyone without intervention. 15:14 < docelic> We don't want existing passwords to be re-imported 15:14 < captain_krunk> This would eliminate all the permission-changing problems. 15:15 < docelic> (some are too weak and kerberos user policy wouldn't even allow them) 15:15 < Smerdyakov> ntk, we have a number of deadbeats with dead e-mail who will be voted out soon, I'm sure. 15:15 < captain_krunk> docelic, could we disable the kerberos password policy temporarily, import, then re-enable it? 15:15 < Smerdyakov> captain_krunk, I'm willing to grant you root on fyodor. Any objections? 15:15 < ntk> our kerberos policy is kind of fascist, but that is a relatively minor matter . 15:15 < docelic> captain_krunk, sure, but we don't want to introduce weak(er) passwords in the new setup, right? 15:16 < offby1> do the trains run on time? 15:16 < docelic> Smerdyakov, go ahead with root privs for megacz 15:16 < Smerdyakov> ntk, do you agree to this, too? 15:16 < captain_krunk> docelic, true, I guess it's a tradeoff. At least they would be forced to pick a better password the next time they change it. 15:16 < ntk> on fyodor? yes. 15:16 < ntk> as long as he solemnly swears not to break anything. 15:16 < Smerdyakov> OK, so I just just add megacz to sudoers with full privileges? 15:16 < captain_krunk> I solomnly swear so :) 15:16 < docelic> captain_krunk, I don't know if we have any hacked accounts, but I'd like to be safe and not give eventual crackers access to new systems just like that 15:17 < docelic> Smerdyakov, yes 15:17 < ntk> use it only where necessary. 15:17 < captain_krunk> docelic, here's another option: we could use their weak passwords, but set their password expiration to something very very soon, like 7 days from now 15:17 < ntk> the mire.password syystem does not really prevent that 15:17 < docelic> Smerdyakov, really? I thought it was straightforward.. the MigrationTips page is great. Do we need a new system, or it would be enough that we help them migrate? I wouldn't have anything against "ok davor, do the whole migration for me and let me know when it's done" 15:17 < Smerdyakov> captain_krunk, OK, you're added. 15:17 < docelic> ntk, it does, their account is not created if password is weak 15:17 < Smerdyakov> docelic, the fact that it needs a page is turning off our more casually-involved members. 15:18 < captain_krunk> the major problem is that the hcoop user isn't around to pick a new password when create-user is run, but they are around to pick a new password when they log in. 15:18 < ntk> but, if their old account is hacked, it doesn't say their new account is not created by the hacker. 15:18 < Smerdyakov> docelic, I want to be able to send a short e-mail that contains all the instructions someone needs to access the new portal. 15:18 < ntk> anyway, that is somewhat academic. 15:18 < Smerdyakov> docelic, the long intro makes more sense for someone who actually wants to set up domains, but people are needing to wade through it to get the links to make payments. 15:18 < docelic> Smerdyakov, visiting a protected page, which is a CGI and generates a password for them? They see it and use it to log in 15:18 < ntk> i think we should do what we did with abu. let's set a cutoff time 30 days from this meeting, at which point people get blocked out of fyodor. 15:19 < Smerdyakov> docelic, being able to say "write your password to ~/.mire-password and wait for an e-mail" is good enough for me. 15:19 < Smerdyakov> docelic, the problem now is that most editing methods break the file permissions. 15:19 < Kuril> ntk: that would belong under migration timeline part of business 15:19 < docelic> Ah, so okay, it's good enough for me too.. This is what we have now, minus maybe a more comfortable email sent to users whose account is created 15:19 < ntk> can't we just have people put in a request in the old portal, visible only to admins or something? 15:19 < Smerdyakov> docelic, also, probably a bad move emotions-wise to send a link to a long page rather than just sending the sentence I suggested in quotes. 15:20 < docelic> Smerdyakov, ah, I get it. Write a small script that does it ? 15:20 < Smerdyakov> docelic, script that does what? 15:20 < docelic> They run 'newpasswd' and it asks them for pw, saves it to file with proper perms and they're done 15:20 < ntk> 'mirepasswd' 15:21 < captain_krunk> I like. 15:21 < Smerdyakov> docelic, that could help, but just giving all migrating admins fyodor root should solve most of the problem. 15:21 < docelic> It can also print some guidelines (4 or 5 lines) for when will the account be created and what to do next. 15:21 < captain_krunk> having a 'mirepasswd' script would let us filter out bad passwords while the user is still around to pick a new one. 15:21 < Smerdyakov> The fact that the migration script runs so infrequently (with manual operation) is also aggravating. 15:21 < docelic> I think we can live with that. So, agreed on mirepasswd ? 15:21 * docelic +1 15:21 < ntk> yes 15:22 < Smerdyakov> Someone gets an e-mail saying "we'll boot you soon if you don't pay your negative balance" and needs to wait around nebulously to get his account created to see his history and pay. 15:22 < captain_krunk> Smerdyakov, I've been running it 2-3 times a day and there have been very few requests lately 15:22 < Smerdyakov> captain_krunk, OK, as long as you're on it. :-) 15:23 < docelic> Any takers for mirepasswd script ? 15:23 < Smerdyakov> Maybe avoid including "mire" in the name. 15:23 < captain_krunk> https://bugzilla.hcoop.net/show_bug.cgi?id=175 15:23 < Smerdyakov> Even if people could be counted on to remember that that is a server's name, it's also inaccurate, since it's a multi-server password. 15:23 < captain_krunk> suggestions? 15:23 < Smerdyakov> s/mire/new 15:23 < docelic> newpasswd, like I said before 15:24 < captain_krunk> done 15:24 < ntk> sounds misleadingly generic, but whatever. 15:24 < Kuril> yes, I think it is too 15:24 * captain_krunk agrees 15:24 < Smerdyakov> .migration_passd? 15:24 < Smerdyakov> .migration_passwd? 15:24 < captain_krunk> migrate? 15:24 < Kuril> someone could believe it'll also change their fyodor password 15:24 < ntk> migratepw 15:24 < docelic> migratepw is ok 15:24 < captain_krunk> new_infrastructure_password_3133+ 15:25 < docelic> migrationpw 15:25 < captain_krunk> migrationpw: going once, going twice... 15:25 < captain_krunk> sold! 15:25 < ntk> okay okay! migrationpw. docelic could you hammer that out in 5mins? 15:25 < docelic> Yes, after the meeting 15:25 < ntk> good. 15:25 < captain_krunk> docelic, should I reassign the bug to you? 15:26 < Smerdyakov> docelic, and it will check an equivalent password strength condition? 15:26 < docelic> I assumed myself as default taker, if you like it please go ahead, if not reassign to me 15:26 < docelic> Smerdyakov, not exactly equivalent, but good enough to cover probably 99% of the domain 15:26 < Smerdyakov> OK 15:26 < ntk> should we then talk more about the timeline and opening up membership? 15:26 < Smerdyakov> ntk, I think it's more useful to talk about task dependencies. 15:26 < docelic> I think that's last on the list 15:27 < ntk> ok 15:27 < Smerdyakov> ntk, that implies the time when they're done. 15:27 < Smerdyakov> Only 12 S3+ Bugzilla bugs left total! 15:27 < Smerdyakov> Making Jabber work isn't set as blocking new account granting. 15:27 < Smerdyakov> Should it be? 15:27 * captain_krunk needs to make a point here 15:28 < captain_krunk> The number of S3 bugs has no relationship to the migration schedule. None whatsoever. 15:28 < ntk> the nature of issue management systems is that the number of open issues never returns to zero. 15:28 < Smerdyakov> captain_krunk, it's an overapproximation. 15:28 < captain_krunk> Any implication that this is the case is a distortion of how bugzilla works. 15:28 < unknown_lamer> Smerdyakov: jabber is optional 15:28 < captain_krunk> It should be "what bugs are listed as blocking #49" 15:28 < captain_krunk> Otherwise people will start altering their severity-assigning practices 15:28 < unknown_lamer> Smerdyakov: I am figuring out how to set up clustering and such now 15:29 < captain_krunk> ntk, yes 15:29 < Smerdyakov> captain_krunk, and that gives us 163, 164, and 175. 15:29 < ntk> clustering jabber should clearly not be necessary 15:29 < unknown_lamer> Smerdyakov: it looks like getting ejabberd to auth against PAM might be impossible though which means we'd need to change servers 15:29 < Smerdyakov> I think I have 163 done now, but just didn't get to finish testing it. 15:29 < captain_krunk> Yep. If that is inaccurate, please change the blocker entry. 15:29 < Smerdyakov> The wiki manual could take a while, and the guy in charge ain't here to comment on ETA. 15:29 < ntk> c_k: http://www.ejabberd.im/pam 15:30 < unknown_lamer> ntk: if we clustered with mire or deleuze as a slave to fyodor we could swap over transparantly 15:30 < ntk> i assume you tried that? 15:30 < Smerdyakov> 175 is the migration script issue that was just added. 15:30 < captain_krunk> ntk, what is jabber? 15:30 * Smerdyakov looks at the S3+ list again to make sure nothing else should be added as blocking. 15:30 < unknown_lamer> ntk: thanks for the link; I think that is in 1.1.4 now but the docs are out of date. I'll drop it onto my hcoop planner page. 15:31 < ntk> i don't think it will kill us to have a few hours or so of intermittence, especially preannounced. 15:31 < ntk> we will have an outage necessarily if we change servers, and it will be difficult or impossible to migrate lists etc. 15:31 < ntk> i don't really think we need to use pam to authenticate jabber anyway. i don't mind a jabber password. 15:31 * captain_krunk needs to answer the door 15:31 < ntk> and it also separates privileges more. 15:32 -!- mwolson [i=mwolson@host-212-116.inlacol.clients.pavlovmedia.com] has joined #hcoop 15:32 < Smerdyakov> Oh good. 15:32 < ntk> mwolson: i called. 15:32 < unknown_lamer> ntk: having the same password for everything is nice though, and one of the big advantages of using kerberos 15:33 * mwolson just got back from a friend's house two hours away 15:33 < Smerdyakov> Different passwords means someone handles plenty of "forgotten Jabber password" tickets. 15:34 < mwolson> can anyone post an IRC log of the conversation up to now? 15:34 < docelic> hey welcome mwolson , you didn't miss much, we agreed to put migrationpw script on fyodor which will help people enter their PW and get account created (the script will take care of proper permissions on ~/.mire-passwd and make sure the pw is not too simple) 15:34 * captain_krunk is back 15:34 < Kuril> mwolson: Hi mwolson. as part of protocol, please state your HCoop user name. 15:34 < ntk> is the protocol even necessarily encrypted? 15:34 < unknown_lamer> ntk: our ejabberd is set up to reject all non-ssl/tls connections' 15:34 < ntk> i don't want to be sending my HCoop master password out in the plain every time i log in over meebo or something 15:35 < ntk> still, a meebo issue, probably. 15:35 < unknown_lamer> well if you use meebo you are trusting them with your password 15:35 < ntk> yes, but just my hcoop ejabberd password. which is very little trust. 15:35 < Smerdyakov> This (Jabber password status) probably deserves a -sysadmin thread. 15:35 * captain_krunk agrees 15:35 < ntk> right. i agree, my intuition is just that IM is a low-trust event. 15:36 < ntk> let's strike the above from the record and move on to the next issue 15:36 < ntk> regarding migration 15:36 < Smerdyakov> I think the only time-consuming task blocking there is the wiki manual. 15:36 < Smerdyakov> Which might involve rolling out a new wiki (and probably trying to transfer old pages as needed). 15:37 < ntk> blocking migration, or blocking new members? 15:37 < Smerdyakov> Either 15:38 < ntk> well, i will write the Mailman and Cron portions, once i figure them all out 15:38 < Smerdyakov> Bleh, fyodor exim is deferring mail from www-data@deleuze.hcoop.net to board@hcoop.net. 15:38 < mwolson> hopefully once we move to the new setup, we won't ever have to block new members during future migrations -- i really hate that 15:39 < docelic> mwolson, true 15:39 < Smerdyakov> mwolson, things have quieted down enough now that it probably wouldn't be disastrous to reopen membership now, except for lack of current documentation. 15:39 < ntk> i think our cab setup at peer1 is substantial enough to retain and avoid shutting down during future expansions, anyway. 15:39 < Smerdyakov> mwolson, but I don't think any of us could have handled dealing with new members during earlier periods of intense migratory activity. 15:40 < ntk> I don't see much harm is opening it up at this point anyway. issues new members face are pretty much the same as migrating members, only perhaps easier since they aren't set in the old system 15:40 < Smerdyakov> So, I'd really like to understand the wiki situation, including which wiki software we'll be using for the version to have up before accepting new members. 15:40 < mwolson> even putting people an the old system for a single month would be better than blocking them completely, methinks, but i'm going somewhat off-topic 15:41 < captain_krunk> I recommend using ikiwiki. There are tools for automatically converting moinmoin wikis to ikiwikis. 15:41 < mwolson> i still haven't evaluated ikiwiki yet 15:41 < Kuril> I personally think having the Netra up and running as a secondary AFS+KDC server would be important prior to allowing new people in. So that we can assure them we have a working system to backup data.. 15:41 < mwolson> ooh! i like the sound of automatic conversion tools 15:41 < Kuril> that doesn't go on a personal server 15:41 < ntk> ah ... i don't understand the motivation behind swapping our wiki software at this stage! 15:41 < captain_krunk> Kuril, please bring that up once we're done talking about wikis. 15:41 < ntk> how is ikiwiki so much better ? 15:41 < captain_krunk> ntk, http://ikiwiki.info/features/ 15:42 < ntk> (i did read the mailing list articles) 15:42 < Kuril> oh that was a quick segue 15:42 < captain_krunk> the most important feature is that we can edit wiki pages using ANY text editor, and the pages are stored in a standard version control system (git, unless anybody objects) 15:42 < Smerdyakov> ntk, one implication is that captain_krunk says he will always be looking for ways to avoid using MoinMoin because he hates the editing paradigm. 15:42 < docelic> mwolson, talking 'bout ikwiki means you did not invest time into wiki2 yet, right ? 15:42 < captain_krunk> Smerdyakov, yes 15:42 < ntk> i'm seeing that it has mostly technical-type internal 'elegance' stuff. 15:42 < Smerdyakov> ntk, which means trouble for accurate system docs. 15:42 < ntk> I don't see the advantage of offering w3mmode. 15:43 < captain_krunk> ntk, then you are missing the "ease of editing" point 15:43 < ntk> Smerdyakov: does not that just imply that he is being bullheaded ? 15:43 < Smerdyakov> I personally almost never feel _any_ inconvenience from editing in an HTML textbox. 15:43 < Smerdyakov> I've never heard anyone else complain about it in an HCoop context. 15:43 < ntk> captain_krunk: nobody who is having trouble editing or has difficulty with the concept of cut/paste is ever ghoing to use w3mmode. 15:43 < mwolson> docelic: what does "wiki2" mean in this context? the rewrite? 15:43 < docelic> mwolson, yes 15:43 < Smerdyakov> But I'm not going to dictate things like this to volunteers. 15:43 < ntk> w3m is defunct. 15:44 < captain_krunk> There is also the major advantage of being able to generate wiki pages automatically from scripts. I think that is big. 15:44 < docelic> captain_krunk, I took a look at the test page you've set up in ikwiki.. not much to say, it's very simple and clean.. Do we have a way how we would transfer current pages to it semi-automatically, or mwolson would have to more or less copy-paste ? 15:44 < mwolson> docelic: i have laid out a style guide, and begin the very initial MemberManual page 15:44 < mwolson> s/begin/begun/ 15:44 < docelic> mwolson, your thoughts on switching ? 15:44 < captain_krunk> docelic, as mentioned on the mailing list, the current state of ikiwiki.hcoop.net is the result of approximately 25 minutes of effort. 15:45 < docelic> captain_krunk, yes, I was trying to say I didn't dislike it :) 15:45 < captain_krunk> docelic, oh, ok, thanks! 15:45 < ntk> we will lose all our pagehistories. 15:45 < ntk> at least, they will be segregated. 15:45 < captain_krunk> ntk, I don't think so 15:45 < Smerdyakov> We should just understand that documentation is our main new-members blocker now. 15:45 < mwolson> docelic: i am automatically in favor of it due to the use of revision control software, which i love 15:45 < docelic> Do we care of our page histories ? (me doesn't) 15:45 < Smerdyakov> So we should decide which aspect of it we will settle before unblocking that bug. 15:45 < ntk> and our formatting. 15:46 < docelic> Yes, I like all what megacz said about ikwiki advantages 15:46 < mwolson> docelic: though to give a more serious answer, i need a couple of hours to look at it more thoroughly and try editing stuff 15:46 * captain_krunk proposes we just move forward with wiki2.hcoop.net with the understanding that we may change wiki software in the near future, and that doing so would massively increase megacz's contributions to the wiki. 15:46 < ntk> i don't care either way, i just think it's a lot of work to little gain. 15:46 < docelic> ntk, yes, if you look short-term 15:46 < ntk> i agree with c_k on that also 15:46 < mwolson> ntk: we don't really care about page history right now because of the rewrite 15:46 < docelic> in fact, even in short term it's not too inconvenient 15:46 < mwolson> captain_krunk: i agree 15:46 < ntk> i guess not. 15:47 < Smerdyakov> mwolson, I care about page history, but not overwhelmingly much, I guess. 15:47 < ntk> there is already a break between wiki/wiki2 15:47 * captain_krunk thinks this is a prime example of his concerns about boardmembers who are not involved in day-to-day admin activities 15:47 < Smerdyakov> captain_krunk, you mean such board members would choose wiki software that is a pain for admins to use? 15:47 < captain_krunk> Smerdyakov, more generally, I think they lack the perspective of the volunteer admins. 15:48 < docelic> mwolson, do you have a rough ETA on wiki rewrite with moinmoin, and with ikwiki switch ? 15:48 < mwolson> i wonder if those moin->ikiwiki migration scripts can preserve history. it certainly seems possible, since each edit is a commit that contains exactly one page (unless it's a rename, which affects two files) 15:48 < ntk> u_l: what wiki software we are using is a prime example of a day-to-day matter that directors should noot even have to THINK about in their capacity as boardmembers. 15:48 < captain_krunk> mwolson, there are claims that such a script (history-preserving) exists, but I'm having trouble finding it. 15:48 < unknown_lamer> ntk: hmm? 15:48 < unknown_lamer> ntk: have you confused captain_krunk and me? 15:48 < docelic> s/u_l/c_k/ :) 15:48 < ntk> yes, 15:48 < unknown_lamer> tsk tsk 15:48 < ntk> i have. 15:48 < captain_krunk> go to http://ikiwiki.info/index/discussion/, search page for "converted" 15:49 < Kuril> if ikiwiki can be made to look nice and inviting to general users and members of HCoop, then go for it. 15:49 < mwolson> captain_krunk: if not, i'm sure i could write such a script pretty easily 15:50 * Smerdyakov marks FIXED the only new-members-blocker assigned to him. 15:50 < captain_krunk> mwolson yes, I agree, especially with HTML::WikiConverter -- that does all the heavy lifting 15:50 < Smerdyakov> Right, we desperately need a nice-looking wiki skin if we use Ikiwiki. 15:50 < mwolson> yep 15:50 < captain_krunk> mwolson, I think the more pressing question is what markup language to use. 15:50 < captain_krunk> what is your preference? 15:50 < captain_krunk> ikiwiki supports a large number. 15:50 < Smerdyakov> We've learned from the experience that appearances matter a LOT for attracting and retaining members, even for an operation as tech-oriented as ours. 15:50 < docelic> Yes, hcoop.net could use a redesign too 15:51 * captain_krunk agrees with docelic 15:51 < docelic> I hesitated to mention HCoop as a reference in a business email I wrote earlier today 15:51 < Smerdyakov> docelic, try to remember the previous page and be a little content. :-) 15:51 < captain_krunk> IMHO the ikiwiki default looks better than http://hcoop.net/ :) 15:51 < Smerdyakov> The last time I asked for redesign help from the membership, there were no suggestions that members felt were good enough. 15:51 < Smerdyakov> There were few suggestions total, too. 15:51 < ntk> we have no webdesigners. 15:51 < mwolson> captain_krunk: disagree. i like our current hcoop.net page reasonably well, and it's certainly better than black&white 15:51 < Smerdyakov> I designed everything but the logo myself at that point. 15:52 < Kuril> there is a member that was interested in helping to redesign the wiki and the hcoop.net front page iirc, but I've forgotten his hcoop username 15:52 < Kuril> bkhl might recall if he's around still 15:52 < Smerdyakov> So, complaints are not entirely unconstructive, but we need a strategy for getting a better design for it to come to anything. 15:52 < ntk> i think aesthetically hcoop.net looks fine, the problem is it has no structure or navigation, just a flat document. 15:52 < ntk> very old-school. 15:52 < docelic> I want a flat document, as long as everything's accessible 15:52 < docelic> s/want/have nothing against/ 15:53 < captain_krunk> yes, please, no javascripted tags on the front page... 15:53 < docelic> We just need more design power 15:53 < captain_krunk> now tags, that's another story... 15:53 < docelic> We could take some of tons of CSS designs around 15:53 < Smerdyakov> We have significantly more members now than when I asked for design proposals last time, so maybe someone would just produce a great idea. 15:53 < captain_krunk> could we offer a year of no dues to the member whose design gets the most votes? 15:53 < Smerdyakov> captain_krunk, who would pay him? 15:54 < ntk> we could try trolling for students to do it for free or cheap as free. 15:54 < captain_krunk> nobody pays him... 15:54 < ntk> for some sort of project. 15:54 < Smerdyakov> captain_krunk, then you really mean "everyone pays." 15:54 < ntk> that would be cheap as free. 15:54 < Smerdyakov> captain_krunk, because others' dues would have to be higher to compensate. 15:54 < captain_krunk> Smerdyakov, if you choose to think of it that way, yes. 15:54 < mwolson> regarding text markup preferences for the wiki, again, i'd have to look into it. as long as it's not something like tikiwiki which makes me want to gouge my eyes out, i should be OK with it 15:54 < captain_krunk> But if the nice design wins us even one extra member, then nobody pays. 15:54 < Smerdyakov> captain_krunk, certainly true. 15:54 < ntk> has to be nice though. 15:55 * unknown_lamer departs 15:55 < docelic> bye Clinton 15:55 < captain_krunk> ntk, how about "design with most member votes, subject to board veto"? 15:56 < docelic> OK, but this is a story for a later time, where we are now was the thread about moinmoin/ikwiki. Megacz suggested going with wiki2 for now. I don't like it since it would make some of Mike's work obsolete at a later time.. If mwolson wants it, I'd agree with doing the switch and rewrite at the same time. mwolson, like the idea? 15:56 < captain_krunk> (board veto)=(unanimous approval of boardmembers) 15:56 < captain_krunk> er, (board veto) = ~(unanimous approval of boardmembers) 15:57 < Kuril> and would the winner be responsible for actually implementing the design on hcoop.net and/or the wiki? 15:57 < Smerdyakov> Kuril, I expect our hackers could take it from there. 15:57 < Kuril> OK 15:57 < mwolson> docelic: i don't think it will make my work obsolete, since i'm almost positive i can migrate changes. so i say go with moin for wiki2 for now, and also investigate ikiwiki 15:58 < ntk> i think that this redesign should take backseat to getting migrated and opening up to new members, as well as restructuring our management 15:58 < docelic> Excellent. I agree mwolson. Unless someone objects, we're done with this item. 15:58 < Smerdyakov> ntk, I don't understand how to parse that. 15:58 < ntk> but there's no reason it can't run partly parallel, other than it will involve a certain amount of effort. 16:39 < ntk> okay, we are done with this item. 16:39 < ntk> don't mind me 16:39 < Smerdyakov> So I want to get to the point where I'm only responsible for Domtool, the portal, treasurer stuff, and the vague duties of president. 16:39 < Smerdyakov> Are we already there? 16:39 < mwolson> have we don't the "status of required daemons" item yet? 16:39 < mwolson> s/don't/done/ 16:39 < Smerdyakov> mwolson, we decided to skip that at the start. 16:39 < Kuril> no, they skipped it 16:39 < mwolson> ok 16:39 < Kuril> the agenda is being very very loosely followed 16:39 < Smerdyakov> Everything should be expressed in Bugzilla, anyway. 16:39 < ntk> yes. 16:39 < Smerdyakov> No need for static "reports. 16:39 < mwolson> what was "announcements and public comments" about? 16:39 < docelic> Smerdyakov, probably. You took a look at TaskDistribution? If not, you can reassign your work to others, I think everyone agrees to relieve you of tasks you don't want doing 16:39 < Smerdyakov> mwolson, all stuff Kuril added that the rest of us raised our eyebrows at and ignored. :P 16:39 < Kuril> (as a sidenote, the agenda should have been completed a week before the meeting so that we all agreed on what would be covered) 16:39 < Kuril> mwolson: incase regular members or the public wanted to say anything :P 16:39 < Smerdyakov> docelic, looking now. 16:39 < Kuril> (that did not fit business stuff) 16:39 < mwolson> Kuril: sure. this time we were a bit frantic i think due to the email last week 16:39 < Smerdyakov> docelic, I guess you took over the resource watchdog but haven't updated TaskDistribution, right? 16:39 < ntk> yes, it shiuld have 16:39 < docelic> Smerdyakov, right, I did update other entries but forgot that one. Please adjust. 16:39 < docelic> Kuril, yes, we usually do so. In any case, we are not dismissing suggestions people would throw in right now. 16:39 < Kuril> I just put items on there that had been mentioned and thought warranted additional discussion 16:39 < mwolson> i think we do need to have mandatory monthly or every-two-months meetings, so that we can keep the human factor present in what we're doing 16:39 * captain_krunk +1 16:39 < Smerdyakov> TaskDistribution definitely looks good now. 16:39 < Smerdyakov> However, there is general management stuff that's not represented there. 16:39 < ntk> we are supposed to have 4 board meetings per year. these have not really been reliably scheduled, and there's not much remedy for that currenlty. 16:39 < Smerdyakov> For instance, when I recently needed to send a list e-mail with the bugs that each volunteer has been ignoring for too long. 16:39 < mwolson> i propose that we increase that number to 6 per year 16:39 < mwolson> and put someone in charge of scheduling them 16:39 < captain_krunk> Smerdyakov, I think that falls under "vague duties of president" 16:39 < ntk> i think we should have at least 6 meetings per year, but not necessarily board meetings. 16:39 < ntk> but 16:39 < captain_krunk> along with "stopping the buck" 16:39 < Smerdyakov> captain_krunk, yeah, and if people are mostly playing nice, then I guess I'm fine with it, but I have (perhaps irrationally) felt that we're Just Not Making Progress until I poke people, and I'm not into that. 16:39 < ntk> this is beginning to go towards some of the management/bylaws part of the discussion which i was not sure we had broached yet. 16:39 < Kuril> captain_krunk: so should the president always deal with general management issues? 16:39 < docelic> I don't think we need regular board meetings. This was discussed before and IIRC we stopped doing that when we saw there were no items to discuss. I vote for keeping the meetings on when-needed basis. It would certainly be good to stay in line with our ByLaws (4 meetings a year), so we can have a mandatory one every 3 months though.. 16:39 < mwolson> ntk: perhaps they could just be 4 board+admin and 2 admin-only then, or something like that 16:39 < Smerdyakov> I want to have a story that helps me predict my time commitment, I guess. 16:39 < Smerdyakov> The story is different based on whether volunteers can be counted to follow the response time policy. 16:39 < ntk> More precisely, I want to propose an amendment within the next few days to our bylaws that would increase the number of directors (at our next scheduled election in April) to five, and perhaps create one not-necessarily-boardmember officer solely responsible as the ultimate technical/day-to-day administrator, subject to board veto/recall 16:39 < Smerdyakov> And my not having to spend much time but HCoop getting stuck in a rut is also a bad outcome, which might make me anguish over choosing to spend more time. 16:39 < ntk> and eliminate board involvement with technical decisions unless they are as big as migrating to a new site or that kind of thingh 16:39 < ntk> i think our board should be bigger and do less. 16:39 < mwolson> Smerdyakov: why do you think that we were stuck in a rut? 16:39 < Smerdyakov> mwolson, bugs were being ignored that others were waiting for to make progress. 16:39 < ntk> or rather, do more, more efficiently and less often. 16:39 < mwolson> Smerdyakov: part of that was due to people being away for a few weeks; i'm not so sure i see a "rut" there 16:39 < Smerdyakov> I'm in favor of the operations director, for sure. 16:39 < captain_krunk> Smerdyakov, a major part of that was that the (absolutely crucial) email notification feature of bugzilla did not survive the move from mire to deleuze. 16:39 < Smerdyakov> I'm not sure it's good to propose a big vote to distract people from migrating at least to the point where they all have new system accounts or are kicked out, though. 16:39 < Kuril> if we decide on an operations director, then we must know what duties he or she will have 16:39 < mwolson> true 16:39 < Kuril> then perhaps put it to vote and ask for a volunteer that has some kind of qualifications 16:39 < Kuril> (unless his duties don't need any realworld training) 16:39 * mwolson afk for a few minutes 16:39 < Smerdyakov> I think we should shelf that issue until we overcome the few obstacles left to reopening membership. 16:39 < ntk> Smerdyakov: Then let's just make it part of the migration process. Run migrationpw, and then Vote Yes on Amendment B. 16:39 < ntk> okay 16:39 < ntk> either way. 16:39 * captain_krunk also afk 180 seconds 16:39 < ntk> i think it should be ready for voting by Reopening Membership time. 16:39 < Smerdyakov> ntk, maybe you should bring it up on hcoop-discuss right after the meeting to get the discursive juices flowing. 16:39 < ntk> okay 16:39 < ntk> good idea. 16:39 < docelic> I don't think we need operations director 16:39 < docelic> for example, 16:39 * captain_krunk back 16:39 < docelic> if he is subject to veto, it means he will consult us about decisions anyway (letting him decide and veto later is waste of everyones time) 16:39 * mwolson back 16:39 < Smerdyakov> docelic, it could just be one of the admins who is responsible for keeping the others moving, but that is sort of asymmetrical, since you might not bug yourself to get something done. :) 16:39 < docelic> so we'll be going down into the same stories (deciding things) like we do now 16:39 < docelic> and second problem, 16:39 < Kuril> docelic: operations director would probably just be a pain in the ass to admins to get things done :-) 16:39 < docelic> operations director would kind of have the ability to tell which admin has to do what , and using which technology 16:39 < Kuril> relieving adamc from such nasty chores 16:39 < captain_krunk> Kuril, how about "nagmaster" 16:39 < ntk> docelic: i didn't mean "director." i meant a possibly (nonboard) officer who calls the shots. veto should not be reviewed for every decision. 16:39 < Kuril> we're all human, we need to be nagged sometimes. 16:39 < docelic> I don't like this.. We've always been coming to best solutions when we discussed things and reached a compromise that fitted everyone 16:39 < ntk> docelic: you think (2) is a bad thing? 16:39 < ntk> hm 16:39 < ntk> okay 16:39 < Smerdyakov> docelic, the nagmaster would not impede that. 16:39 < mwolson> yes. we need a "nagmaster" that is not Smerdyakov, in order to decrease things that Smerdyakov seems to find unpleasant (correct me if I'm wrong) 16:39 < Smerdyakov> docelic, he would not make decisions, but only ensure that admins followed through. 16:39 < captain_krunk> docelic, I agree. IMHO the nagmaster should not be an admin. But the nagmaster should report periodically to the board on the responsiveness of the admins. 16:39 < Smerdyakov> docelic, and also be involved in scheduling people's involvement. 16:39 < Kuril> and any other projects that people have decided to undertake for HCoop 16:39 < ntk> docelic: i thought you were in favor of having some one person who was empowered/responsible to make decisions and Get Things Done. 16:39 < docelic> Smerdyakov, oh, that would be excellent. I always appreciated your reminder emails, and if you'd like to transfer this to someone else, great. 16:39 < captain_krunk> ntk, I think you're twisting words quite a bit there. 16:39 < ntk> obviously taking in everyone's input 16:39 < Smerdyakov> On the subject of "managers," there's a lot of conflation between power-for-its-own-sake and providing a useful time management function. 16:39 < Smerdyakov> I'm talking solely about the latter here. 16:39 < docelic> ntk, I was in favor of letting the person with the initiative go on and proceed with the plan that was agreed on already without another round of discussion.. but we've overcome the stall point in getting the new setup going, and such kind-of radical ideas are no longer needed 16:39 < Smerdyakov> AND, I hope these arrangements are all very interim and that we will hire paid staff soon. 16:39 < mwolson> so, are we resolved to begin accepting applications for "nagmaster", and then start a member poll on which candidate they want, say after two weeks? 16:39 < Kuril> "Time Management Specialist" ? 16:39 < ntk> "nagmaster" sounds like a job that nobody would want. 16:39 * captain_krunk would like to suggest that it be policy that the nagmaster cannot be an admin 16:39 < Kuril> I doubt we should use "nagmaster" :P 16:39 < Smerdyakov> captain_krunk, I agree. 16:39 < mwolson> i suppose having a fellow admin be nagmaster might be off-putting to the other admins 16:39 < Kuril> yes 16:39 < captain_krunk> well, giving it a non-pompous name helps ensure that the role doesn't turn into power-for-its-own-sake 16:39 < docelic> Smerdyakov, we did not need paid staff for fyodor. I expect that when we solve problems and move into mostly 'maintenance routine', we will not need paid staff either, it'll be little enough work that, split among us, we get it done in time 16:39 < Smerdyakov> docelic, what happens when there's a serious downtime situation and all the admins have other life stuff taking up their time? 16:39 < ntk> what does nagmaster do? send emails? 16:39 < captain_krunk> make telephone calls. And, if things get really really bad, recommend that the board remove the admin (hopefully this never happens). 16:39 < Smerdyakov> ntk, he uses whatever communication means he deems appropriate. 16:39 < ntk> i don't think we need paid staff either. i think Peer1 edition 2 needs paid staff. 16:39 < Kuril> ntk: possibly keeps track of what everyone is doing, checks bugzilla regularly, sends reminders, reports to pres. about any nasty responses from admins, etc 16:39 < docelic> Smerdyakov, shouldn't we solve this by having enough admins in rotation that it doesn't happen? In fact, we have a policy of announcing periods of absence... So we can re-adjust that policy so that you can't leave if you're the only admin left or something like that. 16:39 < mwolson> the nagmaster will (1) send a report of non-claimed or stalled bugs to hcoop-sysadmin every two weeks (2) optionally email each admin of a non-claimed or stalled bug a week after it has been created 16:39 < Smerdyakov> docelic, there's the small problem of having to be at work or school regularly.... 16:39 * captain_krunk suggests that "paid admins" is a bit of a charged topic and might not be a good thing to discuss today, from a time-management perspective. 16:39 < docelic> Smerdyakov, in any case, paid staff would have to know everything about our setup, which is not probable. They would still need certain admins individually to advise them or take certain actions .. so the usefulness of paid staff isn't bery high for us 16:39 < mwolson> part (1) is essential, part (2) would be nice, but not a hard requirement 16:39 < docelic> very* 16:39 < Smerdyakov> docelic, in the future, paid admins should do everything. That may not be until 5 years from now, though. 16:39 < Smerdyakov> OK, is there anything left to discuss, besides summarizing the meeting and making sure we agree on action items? 16:39 < docelic> Smerdyakov, well, let's think about this issue later, when we'll have the ability to pay one or more full-time staff 16:39 < Kuril> should probably go part-time first to avoid issues of benefits and having to take taxes out 16:39 < Smerdyakov> A part-time emergency-response sysadmin is kind of a waste of effort. 16:39 < docelic> Kuril, part-time isn't cutting it for us.. unless we have more part-timers... but the whole idea seems suboptimal 16:39 < Smerdyakov> They would tend to be _more_ than full-time, including "on-call" time. 16:39 < Kuril> I'm just saying there are a lot of issues to deal with when it comes to full-time employees 16:39 < captain_krunk> I think we've gotten to the point of debating employment-law terms here... 16:39 < Kuril> anyway :P 16:39 < ntk> we would want to start with independent contractors anyway 16:39 < Smerdyakov> Yes, Kuril, and perhaps once you graduate from college, those issues won't seem fatal anymore. :P 16:39 < mwolson> why are we even discussing having paid admins? 16:39 < Kuril> because we have no real agenda 16:39 < captain_krunk> :) 16:39 < Smerdyakov> Time to repeat a line, I guess. 16:39 < Smerdyakov> OK, is there anything left to discuss, besides summarizing the meeting and making sure we agree on action items? 16:39 < docelic> No 16:39 < captain_krunk> What did we decide was the policy on when to accept new member applications? 16:39 < captain_krunk> (if it was decided at all) 16:39 < mwolson> yes, migration timeline is something we need to discuss 16:39 < docelic> Isn't this taken care fo by bugzilla dependencies ? 16:39 < ntk> no. 16:39 < Smerdyakov> captain_krunk, when the Bugzilla bug is unblocked and someone e-mails hcoop-sysadmin to ask if we're ready and no one complains in 24 hours. 16:39 < ntk> because there's no timeline. 16:39 < captain_krunk> Smerdyakov, that sounds good. 16:39 < ntk> alright, good enough 16:39 < Kuril> it is possible that we keep getting blockers and never can migrate. 16:39 < mwolson> is everyone OK with "somewhere between two weeks and Dec. 1, depending on when wiki manual is done", which i wrote in my hcoop-announce email? 16:39 < ntk> i think we should freeze blockers. 16:39 < Smerdyakov> mwolson, I'm not going to endorse any timeline. 16:39 < mwolson> :^) 16:39 < Smerdyakov> mwolson, we've been too wrong before. 16:39 < mwolson> Smerdyakov: we have a single item left. it would not be wrong to endorse a timeline this time. 16:39 < ntk> not allow any new blockers, and have migration be mandatory 30 days out. 16:39 < Smerdyakov> mwolson, I don't see the benefits to me of endorsing a timeline as outweighing the costs of being wrong. 16:39 < mwolson> Smerdyakov: the benefit is that we gain some of our credibility back for taking so long 16:39 < ntk> i will migrate my email after this meeting 16:39 < Smerdyakov> mwolson, we get it back better by actually being ready to let people in. 16:39 < Smerdyakov> FYI, we have 38 members with negative balances now. 16:39 < Smerdyakov> Probably at least half will never communicate with us again and will have to be voted out. 16:39 < mwolson> Smerdyakov: and when we say that we will be ready, it is all the more motivation for us to get it done on time! 16:39 < captain_krunk> Smerdyakov, can we cross-reference that against last login date? 16:39 < Kuril> ntk: cool. be sure to setsa off on fyodor and setsa on on mire 16:39 < ntk> yes. 16:39 < Smerdyakov> captain_krunk, all the data is there for anyone who wants to to do it, though not so nice programmatically without access to the SQL database. https://members2.hcoop.net/portal/money?cmd=nbals 16:39 < Kuril> this 38 members with negative balances would have been good as a president/finance report 16:39 < Optikal> We should probably automatically deactivate users who have carried a negative balance for more than 2 months. 16:39 < captain_krunk> ok, now that I have root on fyodor I can do this. 16:39 < ntk> we can boot members after 3 months already 16:39 < captain_krunk> BTW, did mwolson get added to root on fyodor? 16:39 < ntk> with 2 boardmembers. 16:39 < Smerdyakov> Optikal, there is a bad situation now because the new servers went down AFTER we had switched the definitive home of the financial data. 16:39 < docelic> captain_krunk, no, kuril was 16:39 * mwolson definitely wants root on fyodor, and has wanted this since last Dec. 16:39 < Smerdyakov> Optikal, so I told people not to worry about their balances into it was back. 16:39 < captain_krunk> I've updated the make-account-for-fyodor-user to assume that, so please consider giving him root. 16:39 < docelic> Ah, good point captain_krunk . I agree with giving mwolson Fyodor admin privs right now 16:39 < Smerdyakov> docelic, I agree too. You can go do it. :-) 16:39 < mwolson> the very first thing i will do is send that darn fyodor "exim paniclog" message to postmaster rather than root 16:39 < captain_krunk> hrm, 12 of our negative-balance users have logged in during the past two weeks. 16:39 < docelic> mwolson, you got root. 16:39 < docelic> ;-) 16:39 < ntk> i am tired of getting 1200 emails all the time whenever certain emails are sent. 16:39 < Smerdyakov> captain_krunk, that's good to hear. It also matches pretty well with my prediction of how many are gone. 16:39 < mwolson> ntk: what kind of "certain emails"? 16:39 < ntk> c_k: more of them may be reading their email. 16:39 < mwolson> yay root 16:39 < ntk> mwolson: the ones i mentioned before. 16:39 < Smerdyakov> OK, so here is my recollection of the big decisions at this meeting: 16:39 < Smerdyakov> - We need to make new account creation simpler, and docelic is on it with a new script. 16:39 < Kuril> hrm. fyodor needs to be shutdown asap to reduce current members out of pocket costs due to so many being MIA. Could be a good way to motivate people to migrate. 16:39 < mwolson> ntk: if you get any more email that you don't want in the future, forward a specimen to me and indicate that you don't want it 16:39 < Smerdyakov> - We need a nicer web design, but there's no schedule for this. 16:39 < Smerdyakov> - We want a vote to increase # board members. 16:39 < Smerdyakov> - We want to add an operations manager. (This shouldn't require bylaws change.) ntk will start a -discuss thread on this and the last one soon. 16:39 < ntk> right, should require no change. 16:39 < captain_krunk> would the board like to vote on the offer-a-free-year-for-a-good-web-design proposal? 16:39 < docelic> No. There's plenty of free css designs out there 16:39 < Smerdyakov> - We will keep creating new docs in MoinMoin, and new-members is blocked until we can expect that 1/2 of new members could get started without bugging admins. 16:39 < docelic> s/bugging/consulting/ 16:39 < Smerdyakov> - Some admins will explore Ikiwiki for a future switch, hopefully automated. 16:39 * captain_krunk is on it 16:39 < Smerdyakov> ntk, you still plan to figure out if I made any accounting errors by Wed.? 16:39 < Smerdyakov> (More like "find the errors," since there must be some.) 16:39 < Smerdyakov> Man, I like that people are paying again. Just two weeks ago, my personal balance was 99% of the co-op's combined balance. :) 16:39 < Smerdyakov> (Because of all the negative balances) 16:39 < docelic> Good to hear 16:39 < Smerdyakov> Now I'm just a little more than half. :) 16:39 < ntk> Smerdyakov: not yet. 16:39 < ntk> but i will do a more detailed review before Wednesday, as i mentioned 16:39 < Smerdyakov> ntk, "not yet" to "are you still planning to..."? 16:39 < ntk> yes 16:39 < ntk> i have begun to go over it, but i have a ways to go yet 16:39 < Smerdyakov> You're not yet planning to do it.. just seems odd. 16:39 < ntk> no, i am! 16:39 -!- jts [i=nion@pdpc/supporter/student/jts] has joined #hcoop 16:39 < mwolson> fyodor's "exim paniclog" email is now set to go to postmaster instead of root 16:39 < ntk> sorry 16:39 < jts> I don't suppose the meeting is still going on? 16:39 < ntk> i meant i had not yet found errors. 16:39 < Smerdyakov> jts, just barely. 16:39 < Smerdyakov> ntk, OK. 16:39 < ntk> jts: it is wrapping up, why? 16:39 < jts> I knew it was at 3, I was just busy doing recording stuff for my band, thought I'd drop in and listen if it was still active 16:39 < Smerdyakov> captain_krunk, what is the status of hunting down that OpenAFS bug that mwolson tripped? Did it turn out it was Exim get-tokens that was responsible in the end? 16:40 < captain_krunk> Smerdyakov, yes. I wrapped the "mail" command in pagsh and all was well, but in order to avoid unexpected token loss in the future I strongly urge that we use port 25 for all mail enqueueing. 16:40 < Smerdyakov> OK. 16:40 < mwolson> are we talking about the "ln -sf" bug, or the "AFS write errors during delivery" bug? 16:40 < Smerdyakov> mwolson, have we changed our standard binaries to do that? 16:40 < captain_krunk> The problem is that if you mail a local user, exim runs all of that user's procmail scripts in a subprocess of the "mail" process.... and that screws with the tokens. 16:41 < Smerdyakov> mwolson, I meant "ln -sf". 16:41 < captain_krunk> mwolson, it was called "ln -sf", but actually had nothing to do with that. 16:42 * mwolson hasn't caught up with email since 3:00pm yesterday 16:42 < captain_krunk> yeah, check it out. interesting stuff. 16:42 < Smerdyakov> OK, did I miss any bullet points? 16:42 < mwolson> so if there's some new development about either the exim4 or ln -sf things, i wouldn't know about it 16:42 < ntk> no. 16:42 * mwolson does a quick check ... 16:43 < Smerdyakov> Since documentation is our main blocker, it might be worth coming up with a more concrete distribution-of-effort plan. 16:44 < Smerdyakov> Also, a sort of meta-point: I'm not entirely happy with the default procedure for reporting meetings. 16:45 < ntk> Should I make real minutes and post them and email them to -announce? 16:45 < ntk> oh 16:45 < ntk> you mean BEFORE meetings? 16:45 < Smerdyakov> ntk's not-editable-by-any-old-schmo procedure is nice, but we should also have a wiki page per meeting and a standard idea of who sends a results e-mail and what format to use. 16:45 < Smerdyakov> No, I did mean after. 16:45 * captain_krunk needs to leave shortly 16:45 < ntk> okay 16:45 < ntk> sounds like a good discussion for the next meeting ;-) 16:45 < ntk> or -discuss. 16:45 < Optikal> brb 16:45 < Smerdyakov> Anything else to discuss while captain_krunk is here? 16:46 -!- Optikal [n=Optikal@c-75-75-80-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 16:46 < Kuril> netra? 16:46 < ntk> that said i agree i should do minutes and we should approve them and more properly memorialize our board activities. 16:46 < Kuril> alternative AFS+KDC 16:46 < ntk> netra is c_k's bailiwick. 16:46 < captain_krunk> Oh yeah, any idea when the next data center visit might be? 16:46 < ntk> when do you want it? 16:46 < Smerdyakov> Kuril, no one else thinks it's more important than things currently marked as new-members-blocking. 16:46 < ntk> tonight? 16:46 < ntk> what do you have to do? 16:46 < Kuril> I think new users would like to know we're not backing up their data onto a personal server... 16:46 < captain_krunk> That would be fine. All I need is for the netra's lom cable to be connected to mire rather than deleuze. 16:46 < Kuril> and that we have redundancy 16:46 < Smerdyakov> I can also visit the data center now that ntk gave me a key, but ntk would be more practiced at the support functions. 16:47 < captain_krunk> Deleuze's serial port is "reserved" by the IPMI board, so I can't use it to LOM over to the netra. 16:47 < ntk> c_k: I will email you when that is done. 16:47 < ntk> tonight. 16:47 < mwolson> woah! so the so-called "ln -sf" thing was caused by using the mail command. i didn't see that one coming 16:47 < Smerdyakov> Is there any reason that I shouldn't open a bug for getting the KVM switch working? 16:47 < docelic> Good, bye c_k 16:47 < ntk> i have to go through manhattan to get home anyway. 16:47 < captain_krunk> mwolson, :) 16:47 < Smerdyakov> I had forgotten that it wasn't, but ntk showed me it sitting there unused. 16:47 < captain_krunk> bye all. 16:47 < ntk> Smerdyakov: no, it should happen. 16:47 -!- captain_krunk [n=megacz@netblock-68-183-71-43.dslextreme.com] has quit ["BitchX: the ONLY IRC client on Viagra!"] 16:48 < ntk> i mean, there should be a ticket whether you open it or I. i was going to do it, but you can go ahead. 16:48 < Smerdyakov> I opened it. 16:48 < ntk> k 16:48 < Smerdyakov> Any other dead hardware stuff that isn't recorded? 16:48 < ntk> abu. 16:48 < ntk> the netra is already recorded? 16:48 < docelic> I agree with suboptimal meeting minutes done prepared by Ntk. I don't mind them in general, but IRC log is bad enough, but various greetings and lines about joins/departs and all random chatter should definitely be removed before posting official MMs 16:48 < Kuril> what of that non-IP KVM? was that ever actually installed? 16:48 < Smerdyakov> ntk, Abu is bug 168. 16:48 < ntk> right. 16:49 < Smerdyakov> Kuril, that's what I was talking about. 16:49 < ntk> that reminds me, docelic was wondering where the IP allocation stuff was 16:49 < Kuril> oh 16:49 < docelic> ntk, OH YES 16:49 < ntk> you can find that in the config file in /etc on any of the machines. 16:49 < mwolson> ah, the KVM switch might need a bug, if there isn't one; forgot to file one a few days back 16:49 < Smerdyakov> ntk, yup, and you ignored the response time policy by not answering. : 16:49 < docelic> ntk, No, you didn't understand 16:50 < docelic> ntk, I was wondering where in the Peer1 interface is a list of free IPs assigned to us? 16:50 < docelic> There should be some information about the netblock that was given to us 16:50 < docelic> Which I don't see 16:50 < ntk> docelic: there is not. 16:50 < ntk> I got an email, which i am now forwarding. 16:50 < docelic> Thanks, send to admins@ 16:50 < ntk> that is to say, there is no list on the interface. 16:51 < Smerdyakov> ntk, do you acknowledge that you grossly ignored the response time policy by not telling docelic this sooner? 16:52 < Smerdyakov> I guess it might not technically apply, since you were just added to Cc and not as assignee, but you could have read the message anyway. 16:52 < mwolson> yeesh. let's not say "grossly ignored" then ... 16:52 < docelic> There were 3 messages about it and he didn't respond to any 16:52 < Smerdyakov> If he accepts this as a communication he should have replied to, then it's gross. 16:53 < docelic> It's like 10 days since I've asked about it (pardon me if I am wrong) 16:53 < mwolson> docelic: in the future, just reassign to whoever you're waiting on if you want a response from them, and reassign back to yourself once you get the response 16:53 < docelic> mwolson, how would that help? 16:53 < mwolson> docelic: it makes the bug show up in the "My bugs" screen 16:53 < docelic> In any case, just pay more attention to it ntk, my last reminder email had [NTK] in the subject 16:54 < docelic> and right now I remember, I emailed you privately off bugzilla once about it as well 16:54 < mwolson> and sends out an email message to the person, saying in a nice way "this ticket is blocked until i get response from you" 16:54 < Smerdyakov> Well, are we done now? I did ask about dividing wiki work, but no one responded. 16:54 < docelic> mwolson, oh ok 16:54 < mwolson> Smerdyakov: i've send an email yesterday to the two other participants so far, haven't checked for a reply yet 16:55 < mwolson> s/send/sent/ 16:55 < Kuril> I was only interested in changing non-technical stuff 16:55 < Kuril> I'm not fluent enough in this system to make a manual of technical stuff 16:55 < mwolson> i'll cover the technical stuff 16:55 < Smerdyakov> mwolson, then what ETA do you have in mind? 16:55 < Kuril> I have already revised some things on wiki2 16:56 < mwolson> i don't think we need to worry about dividing wiki work here; let's just do that over email 16:56 < Kuril> but I don't have any idea where to start for the manual 16:56 -!- nocelic [i=nocelic@e181121176.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["The Darkness Awaits"] 16:56 < Smerdyakov> mwolson, it's only if it will take so long that we should think about it... 16:56 < mwolson> Smerdyakov: ETA is, as i said before, "2 weeks in best case, Dec 1 at worst case" 16:56 < ntk> I think we are done. i agreed to do Mailman, 16:56 < docelic> Oh, my brother was here, I didn't notice,, 16:56 < ntk> and also Cron. for the wiki manual. 16:56 < Smerdyakov> mwolson, oh, I didn't realize that was just a figure on a wiki overhaul. 16:57 < Smerdyakov> mwolson, I think it's the kind of thing that someone could do in a day of dedication. 16:57 < mwolson> Smerdyakov: it doubles as the ETA for overhaul and ETA for begin of forced migration, since this is the only blocker 16:57 < Smerdyakov> mwolson, it just needs to cover the most common questions to fulfill its purpose re: blocking new members. 16:57 < docelic> Oh man ntk, thanks for that email 16:57 < mwolson> Smerdyakov: yes, but it might take me another week to get a big enough chunk of time to get through it :^) 16:58 < Kuril> docelic: should that email go on an admin read-only wiki pagE? 16:58 < docelic> No wait 16:58 < docelic> ntk,. there? this is the wrong email, it's for the old subnet 16:58 < Smerdyakov> mwolson, so we just sit on our hands for a week.... it might be the right decision, but we should consider it explicitly. 16:58 < mwolson> Kuril: we've got a protected IpAddresses page for it already 16:58 < docelic> ntk, or they extended the range? 16:59 < ntk> hold on. 16:59 < mwolson> Smerdyakov: if it would make people happier for me to explicitly set a day that i will work on this, rather than giving a range, i can do so 16:59 < Smerdyakov> mwolson, no, that's not it. 16:59 < docelic> ntk, yes, definitely, this is old info, before they've given us new subnet 16:59 < Smerdyakov> mwolson, it's just that we might reconsider who's doing the work. 17:00 < mwolson> Smerdyakov: i want very much to do the work, and don't want such reconsideration to take place 17:00 < ntk> yes that's the old one, actually i emailed the new one to board@ on 12/9/06 17:00 < ntk> hold one 17:00 < Smerdyakov> mwolson, yeah, but that might not be in the interests of the co-op, or we should decide explicitly if it is. 17:00 < mwolson> *sigh* 17:00 < Smerdyakov> mwolson, if we need to put off migration a month to wait for you to do this, and someone else could do it sooner, that's bad, right? 17:01 < mwolson> fine, I will commit to putting in a massive effort this Wednesday night to get this done, so that no reconsideration needs to take place 17:01 < Smerdyakov> Well, hey, another option is that we decide explicitly that waiting a month for this would be OK.. 17:02 < Smerdyakov> But ntk and docelic seem to be paying attention to a different conversation now and aren't weighing in. 17:02 < mwolson> which is perfectly OK with me :^) 17:02 < Smerdyakov> Given how much time we've spent so far, taking another week would be fine, I suppose. 17:03 < Smerdyakov> Another month I'm not sure about. 17:03 < Smerdyakov> I don't want to push you to neglect other things in your life in a way that will cause you trouble. 17:03 < Smerdyakov> If you can get it done this week, though, then that makes things much nicer. 17:03 < ntk> what, this is for getting ikkiwiki ready to use? 17:03 < Kuril> ntk: no. the manual 17:03 < ntk> oh 17:04 < Smerdyakov> No, for having enough documentation that new members can get by without hand-holding. 17:04 < Kuril> ntk: at least the technical part 17:04 < ntk> the whole thing? 17:04 < mwolson> Smerdyakov: it won't cause me any huge trouble. in a month, things might be hell due to going further in job interview process, but right now I'm OK with the extra load 17:04 < ntk> i think if mwolson wants to do the massive effort and get it done in a week, i would stamp it ready for allowing new members in. 17:04 < Smerdyakov> mwolson, OK, then. 17:04 < mwolson> which is why i want to push this 17:04 < ntk> docelic? 17:04 < mwolson> i just mentioned "Dec. 1" earlier to have some wiggle room 17:05 < docelic> sure, go ahead by all means 17:06 < ntk> no reconsideration. 17:06 < Smerdyakov> ntk, have you recorded the lines that I began with - to prepare minutes? 17:07 < Smerdyakov> ntk, the outcome with task assignments should probably end up e-mailed to -sysadmin. 17:08 < ntk_log> yes 17:08 < docelic> wonderful ntk & admins, we've got 28 IPs 17:09 < Smerdyakov> OK, then I await that e-mail. I don't think I personally am assigned to do diddly squat until ntk's financial audit comes in. 17:09 < ntk_log> alright. 17:09 < ntk_log> meeting over? 17:10 < Smerdyakov> I think so. 17:10 < docelic> Meeting over.