14:02:54 <pronovic> #startmeeting
14:02:54 <hcoop-meetbot> Meeting started Sat Apr 17 14:02:54 2021 UTC.  The chair is pronovic. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:02:54 <hcoop-meetbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
14:02:59 <unknown_lamer> We just need quorum and the president present and we're good
14:03:06 <pronovic> #topic attendance
14:03:11 <pronovic> if you are an hcoop member and present please write "#info $hcoop_username"
14:03:14 <pronovic> #info pronovic
14:03:14 <keverets> #info keverets
14:03:16 <unknown_lamer> #info clinton
14:03:50 <bkhl> #info bkhl
14:03:57 <pronovic> #topic agenda
14:04:02 <pronovic> #info https://wiki.hcoop.net/IrcMeetings/20210417
14:04:08 <pronovic> #topic Elect officers so we can file with Pennsylvania by April 30
14:04:11 <pronovic> Nominations for president are open
14:04:42 <pronovic> I am willing to do this again, but will step aside if anyone else is interested
14:04:44 <unknown_lamer> I nominate pronovic again, as you have done a great job
14:04:46 <bkhl> I think pronovic has been doing a good job, are you up for another year?
14:04:51 <bkhl> I was just about to say …
14:05:07 <pronovic> Ok
14:05:21 <pronovic> #info vote: pronovic as president
14:05:46 <bkhl> Second
14:05:57 <unknown_lamer> #info +1
14:06:01 <keverets> #info +1
14:06:03 <pronovic> #info +1
14:06:03 <bkhl> #info +1
14:06:17 <pronovic> #agreed pronovic is elected president
14:06:29 <pronovic> (Also, sorry - since you both said something I took that as a second initially.)
14:06:45 <pronovic> Nominations for secretary are open
14:07:09 <pronovic> keverets, are you up for another year?
14:07:25 <keverets> I'm available, but I've done it for several years and open to someone else having a go
14:08:08 <pronovic> anyone else interested/willing to do this for 2021?
14:08:29 <unknown_lamer> would have to be bkhl or layline if I am going to be treasurer for one more year (which practically with the bank account and whatnot I think makes sense), and layline is not here so
14:08:48 <bkhl> I'm rather happy to stay a seat filler. :-)
14:09:06 <pronovic> ok, I nominate keverets for secretary
14:09:23 <bkhl> Second.
14:09:34 <pronovic> #info vote: keverets as secretary
14:09:37 <pronovic> #info +1
14:09:39 <bkhl> #info +1
14:09:39 <keverets> #info +1
14:09:40 <unknown_lamer> #info +1
14:09:48 <pronovic> #agreed keverets is elected secretary
14:09:58 <pronovic> Nominations for treasurer are open
14:10:12 <pronovic> clinton, I think you are saying that you are willing to do this for another year?
14:10:15 <unknown_lamer> Yes
14:10:26 <pronovic> I nominate clinton for treasurer
14:10:33 <unknown_lamer> I think we should ditch WF for some kind of coop/digital bank this year if we can, which would make switching treasurers easier
14:10:36 <keverets> I'll second the nomination
14:10:47 <unknown_lamer> also want to get a few more processes documented for handovers (changing stripe / paypal contacts basically)
14:11:02 <pronovic> ok, I'll track those topics for a future board meeting
14:11:15 <pronovic> #info vote: clinton for treasurer
14:11:17 <pronovic> #info +1
14:11:19 <unknown_lamer> #info +1
14:11:19 <keverets> #info +1
14:11:20 <bkhl> #info +1
14:11:29 <pronovic> #agreed clinton is elected treasurer
14:11:41 <pronovic> Any other election-related discussion before I move on to the rest of the agenda?
14:12:05 <pronovic> #topic General update on finances
14:12:18 <pronovic> clinton, could you please give your usual quick summary?
14:12:21 <unknown_lamer> alright
14:12:56 <unknown_lamer> #info Bank: $7476.13, , Paypal: $83.87, Total: $7560.0
14:12:56 <unknown_lamer> #info Sum of all active balances in portal: $3906.61, Co-op balance: $3380.89, Total: $7287.5
14:12:56 <unknown_lamer> # info Dues: $574/month, Expenses: $295.10 per month including amortized yearly costs
14:13:03 <unknown_lamer> #info Dues: $574/month, Expenses: $295.10 per month including amortized yearly costs
14:13:08 <unknown_lamer> Expenses will go up very slightly soon (upgrading webserver, may still
14:13:08 <unknown_lamer> add jitsi server). Dues will also go down as I will be bringing up
14:13:08 <unknown_lamer> several members for expulsion this month.
14:13:25 <pronovic> thanks
14:13:29 <unknown_lamer> I got all old bills I have records for entered, and we are very close to what we actually have in cash now!
14:13:36 <pronovic> +1 :)
14:13:52 <pronovic> any other discussion on this?
14:14:01 <unknown_lamer> so this year I think we can finally perform a long overdue audit, which will be a total pain. Probably plan for toward the end of year or first quarter next year, I think we're gonna wanna rewrite the audit tool so it's usable as part of that.
14:14:11 <pronovic> ok
14:14:15 <unknown_lamer> I will also be freezing members for real soon, overdue :-\ and getting them off the books
14:15:04 <pronovic> #topic GANDI domain renewal email from April 13 - anything we need to do?
14:15:15 <pronovic> clinton, I think you said that this is no big deal and will happen this weekend?
14:15:38 <unknown_lamer> #info clinton will renew the domain today, and tls certs this month
14:15:44 <pronovic> thanks
14:15:52 <pronovic> #topic Status of volunteer coordinator request
14:16:02 <pronovic> No one volunteered to coordinate volunteers. :(
14:16:05 <unknown_lamer> yeah I'm gonna deal with the domain right after the meeting, cert probably this week (takes a bit longer to deal with, not sure I'll have time today)
14:16:34 <pronovic> ok.  seems like we still have plenty of time on both domain and cert
14:17:09 <pronovic> on the volunteer coordinator topic, I guess we'll probably just drop this topic from future agendas.  just wanted to ask whether anyone else has any thoughts.
14:17:11 <unknown_lamer> cert we may have to wait a bit, I lost track of what the rules are now (apple unilaterally declared certs can't be longer than 13 months or something last year IIRC)
14:17:59 <unknown_lamer> no comment really here on that, we can give it one more shot I guess and then table it for a bit
14:18:06 <pronovic> ok
14:18:15 <unknown_lamer> would be nice to get more folks involved but with < 100 members technically the participation rate is pretty high already...
14:18:19 <pronovic> true
14:18:23 <bkhl> I missed that the request was sent out and can't find it my mailbox now.
14:18:44 <pronovic> I included it along with the election announcement.  might be better to send one more request out separately?
14:19:04 <bkhl> Based on my own not noticing it, I think yes.
14:19:20 <unknown_lamer> can't hurt, we don't send many announcements so we're not spamming anyone
14:19:23 <pronovic> #action pronovic will send one more email requesting a volunteer coordinator
14:19:56 <bkhl> Maybe point out that this is probably a good CV filler.
14:20:17 <pronovic> ok
14:20:38 <pronovic> any other discussion on this?
14:20:57 <unknown_lamer> good here
14:21:05 <pronovic> #topic Change paypal contact name
14:21:12 <pronovic> clinton, I'll let you introduce this
14:21:34 <unknown_lamer> so paypal is under HCOOP, INC. that's all good
14:21:46 <unknown_lamer> but the address and contact are adam's, from like 10+ years ago
14:21:54 <pronovic> ah, yes... not good
14:22:01 <unknown_lamer> so we squabbled over the letterhead last time this came up, as decisions by consensus tend to go ;)
14:22:08 <pronovic> so we want to change this sort of like we did for stripe last year?
14:22:36 <unknown_lamer> yeah, once we have updated directors with PA and have the current list I wanted to initiate the process if there are no objects, so sometime in May
14:22:36 <pronovic> I think we did manage to come up with a letterhead for that stripe thing, maybe we can agree to use that same letterhead for this?
14:22:41 <unknown_lamer> Right
14:23:12 <unknown_lamer> Then we can deal with an "official" letterhead if anyone wants to work on that in general, I think the one we have now is adequate but we may need to start using it yearly whenever we change stripe / paypal
14:23:14 <keverets> letterhead is such an odd pseudo-authentication mechanism :/
14:23:20 <pronovic> yeah, I agree
14:23:40 <pronovic> do we need a formal motion?  or can we just say that clinton has the authority to do this as the treasurer?
14:24:11 <unknown_lamer> The one risk though is that paypal might lock us out for some indefinite time, although we did try to initate before and got blocked by lack of letterhead and they never said anything, seems low risk enough now that we're not running within 30 days of depleting funds anymore
14:24:29 <keverets> seems reasonable to have under that purview, but for changes of things that are used as auth it might be worth having 2 people responsible
14:24:51 <bkhl> unknown_lamer, are there significant funds in our Paypal account currently?
14:24:51 <unknown_lamer> I just wanted to informally discuss and make sure we're all on the same page, I'll ping board@ when I'm ready to proceed
14:24:56 <unknown_lamer> $80 bucks
14:25:12 <unknown_lamer> and I will transfer it down to zero obviously before we start any process with them, I know how they can be
14:25:19 <bkhl> Alright.
14:25:26 <keverets> think we're all good with it (unless someone wants more info)
14:25:31 <keverets> pinging board@ when ready sounds good to me
14:25:33 <unknown_lamer> keverets: seems reasonable for treasurer and secretary both to be on accounts like thi to me ?
14:25:46 <pronovic> that is what I was thinking too
14:25:49 <unknown_lamer> assuming they allow multiple contacts, when I checked this week I only saw one but did not dig too deeply
14:26:06 <keverets> unknown_lamer: I was thinking president + treasurer, but being that secretary already gets the payment info for tracking that might make sense, too
14:26:30 <unknown_lamer> we can work that out once we deal with the initial contact name
14:26:40 <pronovic> yes, agreed.
14:27:04 <pronovic> so I think there isn't any other formal action needed for this now, and we can move on to the next topic?
14:27:09 <keverets> +1
14:27:09 <unknown_lamer> sure
14:27:21 <pronovic> #topic Quick discussion about the Debian mlton package
14:27:26 <pronovic> Here, I mostly want to understand whether we need to try to get this officially back into Debian
14:27:31 <pronovic> I can do that, but I'm hesitant until I understand what we use it for and how urgent this is, especially because it seems like the packaging is awkward with the circular dependencies and everything.
14:27:36 <pronovic> Once I take it over, I'll own it (and all its warts) forever.
14:27:41 <pronovic> Might be better off to continue building it ourselves?
14:27:45 <pronovic> I could maintain a private package just for us in my existing package repo on cedar-solutions.com.
14:27:48 <pronovic> Any thoughts?
14:28:08 <unknown_lamer> It's not particularly urgent
14:28:16 <keverets> what is it used for?
14:28:20 <unknown_lamer> domtool
14:28:27 <keverets> ah
14:28:33 <pronovic> ok, that's what I thought - so it is critical to our infrastructure
14:28:35 <keverets> so somewhat critical infrastructure
14:28:39 <unknown_lamer> Just a bit :)
14:28:59 <unknown_lamer> I mean, we have packages and I can build them, just would be nice if the build dep problem were fixed in debian before the release after buster
14:29:21 <unknown_lamer> for the general community, sml on debian has basically become unusable, maintainer appears awol for several years now
14:29:35 <pronovic> right
14:29:42 <pronovic> there is at least one other similar-looking package in the archive
14:29:44 <keverets> all happy with it as a dependency, or is there interest/value in porting to either another Standard ML dep or another lang?
14:29:49 <unknown_lamer> basically dropped the 2013 package and disappeared, and that got caught up with the build problem (iirc basis library conflicts with the old version and depends on itself and bam, buildd rejects)
14:30:19 <unknown_lamer> keverets: mlton is the best implementation of SML, it's fine in general. upstream still supports it and even made a release recently
14:30:31 <pronovic> so it's mostly just a matter of having it available for our use
14:30:35 <keverets> OK, so just the debian packaging and not a general project issue
14:30:36 <unknown_lamer> porting domtool to ocaml or something is ... not feasible right now (maybe if I find a new job that doesn't leave my brain melted weekly :) )
14:30:38 <unknown_lamer> yeah
14:30:59 <unknown_lamer> pronovic: how about I plan to try building the new release and updating packaging and pinging you once I have that up on git.hcoop.net ?
14:31:09 <unknown_lamer> going to do that as part of planning for buster
14:31:17 <unknown_lamer> err bullseye?
14:31:22 <unknown_lamer> why did debian choose two b names in a row
14:31:25 <unknown_lamer> :)
14:31:43 <pronovic> yeah, if you want to take that on.  otherwise, I can take a stab at it myself.
14:31:57 <pronovic> probably not a bad learning experience for me - this type of package is a little outside my experience in Debian
14:32:06 <unknown_lamer> I'll give it a shot and if it proves to be more than my basic packaging knowledge can handle I'll try to fence it off on you :)
14:32:11 <pronovic> ok.
14:32:43 <pronovic> seems like we have a plan for this, then
14:33:02 <pronovic> #action clinton will look at updated packaging for mlton and will ping pronovic for help
14:33:21 <pronovic> #topic Status & planning for new HCOOP meetbot
14:33:26 <pronovic> After the last board meeting, I rewrote the existing Meetbot in Python 3 and using Limnoria
14:33:30 <pronovic> https://github.com/pronovic/hcoop-meetbot
14:33:33 <pronovic> https://hcoop-meetbot.readthedocs.io/en/stable/
14:33:35 <unknown_lamer> yes, nothing dire, but does need looking at because the more that is maintained upstream and not just for the coop the better imo (benefits other people, takes some burden from us)
14:33:41 <unknown_lamer> exciting
14:33:44 <pronovic> It works fine in local testing, but I'd like to work with someone who's already done this to get it running and connected to Freenode
14:34:12 <unknown_lamer> I think keverets has the most experience there now?
14:34:17 <keverets> most likely
14:34:24 <pronovic> or else someone who's already done it can look at the docs, and see if they can get it running themselves.  would help sanity check that the docs are useful/legible
14:34:41 <keverets> I can try to fire it up like the old one if desired
14:34:46 <unknown_lamer> I need to set up a board group in afs, and then add us all to it (maybe a board daemon group too with our unanttended principles, but need to think about that)
14:35:04 <pronovic> configuration and install mechanism are different than before.
14:35:07 <unknown_lamer> so anyone can run the bot in the future, can't put that off much longer (not today but soon...)
14:35:16 <pronovic> ok
14:35:21 <unknown_lamer> I can take a stab at it too if keverets runs into any problems
14:36:03 <keverets> the old configuration and install mechanisms left a lot to be desired, so happy to try the new ones :)
14:36:11 <pronovic> We'll need to install the limnoria package, if it's not already installed.  After that, you can do the rest with just pip3
14:36:15 <pronovic> for your local yser
14:36:44 <keverets> will limnoria conflict with supybot?
14:36:58 <pronovic> one sec
14:37:00 <bkhl> Can't limnoria also be installed with Pip?
14:37:02 <keverets> Conflicts: supybot
14:37:12 <pronovic> yeah, seems like it conflicts
14:37:26 <pronovic> limnoria is basically the Python 3 version of supybot
14:37:27 <keverets> may try a local limnoria with pip then, if that works
14:37:43 <pronovic> ok.  I haven't tested that, but it seems like it should work.
14:38:04 <keverets> not as pleasant or straightforward, so wouldn't want to do that beyond testing
14:38:06 <bkhl> Their github page describes pip install --user as one installation method.
14:38:13 <keverets> or can coordinate and just remove supybot for a while
14:38:25 <bkhl> Could this be something to test out containerization for?
14:38:45 <keverets> that could be interesting. Don't want one to block the other, though
14:39:21 <pronovic> I guess the question is whether removing supybot is likely to impact users.
14:39:43 <keverets> I haven't heard of anyone else using supybot, but should be able to check running processes pretty easily
14:39:46 <unknown_lamer> no issue doing a local pip install, also when we go to bullseye all python2 stuff like that is going to be gone
14:39:59 <unknown_lamer> actually, since supy is python2
14:40:02 <pronovic> yeah, that's why I converted to limnoria - it's basically going to be dead to us anyway
14:40:05 <unknown_lamer> lemme check real quick I don't see why we'd have a conflict
14:40:39 <unknown_lamer> ah bummer it does conflict
14:40:39 <keverets> that's a good point, too... not sure if someone was overzealous with the Conflicts or if there's actual shared config/libraries/etc
14:40:54 <pronovic> I think it conflicts because they both install the same supybot executables
14:41:00 <pronovic> same command-line interface, basically
14:41:03 <keverets> ah
14:41:24 <unknown_lamer> local pip install looks like the answer for now, and when we are on bullseye (for member stuff I expect this year, we're on buster in general except for gibran which I did not get to because the burn out slammed me just before...)
14:41:27 <bkhl> So if someone is using it directly rather than as a library, they should be able to switch relatively easily?
14:41:29 <keverets> ok, so for now I'll just do a user install of limnoria
14:41:54 <unknown_lamer> and when we are on bullseye it won't be a problem anymore, since supybot is gone
14:41:55 <keverets> if things are lookinng good, we can redo it with a system package and drop supybot (as long as other users not using it)
14:42:14 <pronovic> bkhl, yes, the switch should be pretty seamless, unless they're using a python2 plugin that doesn't run under python3 - but it will become moot when we upgrade to the next Debian release
14:42:21 <pronovic> since python2 will be gone anyway
14:42:29 <unknown_lamer> for bullseye also I think we're gonna wanna spin up a new shell and webserver, because of python2
14:43:04 <pronovic> for transition, you mean?
14:43:08 <pronovic> or some other purpose?
14:43:27 <unknown_lamer> transition, since this is going to be more disruptive than stretch -> buster
14:43:36 <pronovic> yes, agreed
14:43:39 <unknown_lamer> jessie -> stretch -> buster were all pretty easy, this one ... yikes
14:44:07 <unknown_lamer> but, since we can just spin up vms... an extra $60 a month for like six months while we convince people to move, and we're done :)
14:44:16 <unknown_lamer> I don't think many people are using python but we also have things like moin to worry about
14:44:26 <unknown_lamer> anyway, getting a bit much into this for a board meeting
14:44:33 <pronovic> true.  future discussion.
14:44:42 <bkhl> That was the last point though?
14:45:00 <pronovic> #action keverets will take a look at a local pip3 install of limnoria and hcoop-meetbot and ask pronovic for help when needed
14:45:02 <pronovic> yes, that's the last topic
14:45:08 <pronovic> #topic other business
14:45:13 <unknown_lamer> keverets: if you have any issues with local pip installation lmk
14:45:17 <pronovic> anyone in attendance can raise a topic here
14:45:21 <unknown_lamer> I am pretty sure I've used pip in afs before and it was fine though
14:45:32 <keverets> unknown_lamer: will do, thanks!
14:45:35 <pronovic> I install my own stuff with pip3, seems to work fine
14:45:55 <pronovic> if there isn't any other business, we can end the meeting?
14:46:35 <pronovic> ok, thanks everyone for attending.
14:46:37 <pronovic> #endmeeting