(20:13:45) Davor Ocelic: Yes, hello everyone.
(20:13:54) Davor Ocelic: Participating members, please state your username.
(20:14:03) Adam Chlipala: adamc
(20:14:04) Justin Leitgeb: present
(20:14:11) bkhl: bkhl
(20:14:13) Michael Olson: mwolson
(20:14:17) Justin Leitgeb: leitgebj
(20:14:24) Davor Ocelic: docelic
(20:14:43) Nathan Kennedy: ntk
(20:15:05) Davor Ocelic: Alright, here's our agenda for today one by
one. If  you have any additional items, please discuss them after the
agenda items already at wiki
http://wiki.hcoop.net/IrcMeetings/20081012
(20:15:16) Davor Ocelic: 1) What rearrangements exactly are we making
in the peer1 cabinet, how, and when. It is important that we get the
mail server machine up and running quickly, especially because we have
a few members waiting on improvement in this area.
(20:15:41) Davor Ocelic: Justin has the main word to say about this,
as he's been to the datacenter and seen the exact situation.
(20:16:18) Justin Leitgeb: Basically the problem is that we don't have
enough space currently
(20:16:54) Justin Leitgeb: we need to take out some equipment and
re-organize in order to take out the mail server, upgrade the
hardware, and re-rack
(20:16:56) Davor Ocelic: By the way, since this is somewhat related
with the idea of hiring paid staff and a better hosting/colocation
plan, I'd like to say I think we need to make some rearrangements
*while* we're still at peer1...
(20:16:58) Nathan Kennedy: are there unused devices that might be
removed to make room?
(20:17:15) Davor Ocelic: One machine that can be taken out is Nathan's
Xanadu (the unused dell)
(20:17:19) Justin Leitgeb: ntk the poweredge 1650
(20:17:27) Nathan Kennedy: xanadu
(20:17:36) Nathan Kennedy: it is not mine anymore, for the record
(20:17:41) Nathan Kennedy: it belongs to the coop
(20:17:47) Justin Leitgeb: Can we remove the 2U switch and put in a
basic netgear?
(20:17:47) Nathan Kennedy: (i think)
(20:17:55) Nathan Kennedy: we certainly could, if we had one
(20:17:57) Davor Ocelic: leitgebj, would that give us the space we
need for xSeries?
(20:18:15) Davor Ocelic: (I mean just the Dell removal)
(20:18:17) Adam Chlipala: I'm all in favor of removing unused
machines, even if we find a way to get enough space otherwise.
(20:18:37) Justin Leitgeb: docelic: it's really close, the dell is
only 1U, and it's currently not racked, I think
(20:18:50) bkhl: Indeed. Some room for air and future expansions cant hurt.
(20:19:12) Justin Leitgeb: yeah, the problem is that now if we have a
hardware failure, it means shutting everything down to take out
equipment
(20:19:57) Davor Ocelic: If we agree that our next big expansion
should go towards hiring paid staff and finding more
price/space/processing-power optimized colocation solution, then we
might for a while take out Krunk machine as well.
(20:20:18) Justin Leitgeb: is there anything wrong with using a crappy
netgear switch that isn't rack mounted?  Hardware gurus, please chime
in here
(20:20:38) Davor Ocelic: ^-- my question as well.
(20:20:46) Davor Ocelic: just s/crappy//
(20:21:21) Nathan Kennedy: i am not a hardware guru, but i think the
2U switch has been a big waste of space
(20:21:36) Justin Leitgeb: ok, that's my intuition as well
(20:21:55) Davor Ocelic: there were no problems with it while we were
able to afford it
(20:22:04) Justin Leitgeb: let's toss it, and get a cheap, small
netgear device to put in the cabinet.
(20:22:46) Davor Ocelic: leitgebj, how are we connected to peer1
router? would replacing a switch still leave our internal traffic free
and not charged by peer1?
(20:23:09) Justin Leitgeb: docelic: they give us 1 ethernet port, and
we hook the switch off of that
(20:23:20) Justin Leitgeb: replacing our switch with another shouldn't
change that at all
(20:23:22) Nathan Kennedy: they have two ports, one is active, one is backup
(20:24:12) Justin Leitgeb:  ok, then we need a new, small, cheap switch
(20:24:30) Justin Leitgeb: and I can get us about 3U of rack space,
which should be enough
(20:24:52) Davor Ocelic: Let's vote: Supposing that there are no
problems with replacing a switch (which we can additionally discuss on
the mailing list), who is in favor of finding a much smaller and
non-racked switch replacement?
(20:25:05) Justin Leitgeb: +1
(20:25:08) Davor Ocelic: +1
(20:25:12) Adam Chlipala: +1
(20:25:23) Nathan Kennedy: then let's deputize leitgebj to do this,
and allocate funds for a monthly metrocard for him also
(20:25:26) Nathan Kennedy: +1
(20:25:27) bkhl: +1
(20:26:02) Davor Ocelic: Ok, another issue, given the new space
increase, Justin what parts do we need to get to make everything fit
in the rack properly?
(20:26:02) Justin Leitgeb: ntk: the monthly metrocard really isn't
necessary.  I have one through my day job anyway.  but thanks :)
(20:26:06) iriefrank: monthly metrocard?
(20:26:06) Nathan Kennedy: ok
(20:26:10) Nathan Kennedy: nevermind
(20:26:11) iriefrank: ok
(20:26:25) Nathan Kennedy: i wish i had one through my dayjob when i
worked there
(20:27:08) Justin Leitgeb: docelic: not sure exactly... getting the
old equipment out should make it easier to categorize
(20:27:30) Justin Leitgeb: the one set of rails that I mentioned on
the list, at least
(20:27:31) Davor Ocelic: leitgebj, when could you take a trip there to
replace the switch and find out about this?
(20:27:43) Justin Leitgeb: docelic: pretty much as soon as I get the switch
(20:28:03) Davor Ocelic: and, does removing the Dell and the switch
requires turning off any of the systems (except temporary link
outage)?
(20:28:40) Justin Leitgeb: I can probably do that without much
disruption, but we shouldn't make guarantees like that with the
cabinet in its current state
(20:28:53) Justin Leitgeb: we should say that there may be a service
disruption when I do this
(20:29:19) Davor Ocelic: Okay. with the restriction that if you see
for sure that it won't work without turning off the systems, you don't
do it.
(20:29:50) Nathan Kennedy: :-(
(20:30:06) Adam Chlipala: I would think we should assume the machines
will have to be turned off.
(20:30:15) Adam Chlipala: And announce a downtime window accordingly.
(20:30:15) Justin Leitgeb: yeah, I agree
(20:30:17) bkhl: Yeah.
(20:30:33) Justin Leitgeb: everyone here has seen the wires in the
cabinet, I think
(20:30:37) Justin Leitgeb: at least from pix
(20:31:35) Justin Leitgeb: are we on to the next item?
(20:31:43) Davor Ocelic: leitgebj, could you remind me of the URL? I
don't remember wires on both sides of the rack
(20:32:22) bkhl: leitgebj: could you sum up what you are going to then, please?
(20:32:59) Justin Leitgeb: once I get the new switch, I'll remove the
current 2U, as well as the old dell server
(20:33:16) Justin Leitgeb: at that point I'll figure out exactly what
needs to be ordered to get the rack in better shape
(20:33:24) Nathan Kennedy: ok
(20:33:31) bkhl: Sounds good to me.
(20:33:31) Davor Ocelic: yes, but we were discussing what to do about
the potential downtime
(20:33:32) Justin Leitgeb: we'll have to order some more components,
such as rails
(20:33:37) Davor Ocelic: which you didn't explain Justin
(20:33:40) Nathan Kennedy: it will be announced in advance
(20:33:42) Nathan Kennedy: and it should be short
(20:33:54) Davor Ocelic: Alright.
(20:34:28) Davor Ocelic: Next item on the list --
(20:35:13) Justin Leitgeb: docelic: sorry, can't find the pix right now
(20:35:21) Davor Ocelic: what to do with the unused Dell machine--
since we just agreed on taking it out, I suppose its eventual setup
will for sure be postponed until we make a change to our hosting plan
(be it at peer1 or somewhere else)
(20:35:35) Davor Ocelic: Do you agree?
(20:35:43) Justin Leitgeb: docelic: yes
(20:36:15) Nathan Kennedy: sell it then
(20:36:16) Adam Chlipala: I hope we find a way to avoid ever setting it up.
(20:36:30) bkhl: Hm, that machine was a donation right?
(20:36:37) Davor Ocelic: bkhl, yes, from Nathan
(20:36:43) Nathan Kennedy: hold on there
(20:36:47) Nathan Kennedy: one machine was a donation, one was not
(20:37:03) Nathan Kennedy: i'm not entirely sure than xanadu was a donation
(20:37:11) Nathan Kennedy: it may have cost a few 100 bucks
(20:37:14) Davor Ocelic: ntk, correct. IBM xServer we paid for and
xanadu was your donation
(20:37:16) Nathan Kennedy: yes
(20:37:19) Nathan Kennedy: this is correct
(20:37:31) Nathan Kennedy: the dell was donated.
(20:37:43) Davor Ocelic: so why did you object to bkhl's question?
(20:37:48) Nathan Kennedy: i do not
(20:37:48) Justin Leitgeb: is it worth more than shipping it would cost?
(20:38:15) Nathan Kennedy: i don't think so, especially if someone
local bought it.  if you think it's too much trouble we could
freecycle it
(20:38:27) Nathan Kennedy: in which case i'd just take it back
(20:38:47) Davor Ocelic: It is a Dual P3 1.4GHz  with 2 GB ram
(20:38:48) bkhl: Do you think we could get away with selling it and
counting the proceeds as a donation for the account balancing thing?
(20:38:48) Nathan Kennedy: craigslist would be the way to go
(20:38:51) Nathan Kennedy: hm
(20:39:07) Justin Leitgeb: ntk, yeah, I'll try putting it on CR
(20:39:24) Justin Leitgeb: if anyone takes it, the money would go to the coop
(20:39:46) Justin Leitgeb: same with the switch?
(20:40:00) Davor Ocelic: I propose we keep the switch for the moment,
even if unused.
(20:40:04) Nathan Kennedy: yes, but we can't do that until the new one is in
(20:40:09) Nathan Kennedy: what's the point?
(20:40:18) bkhl: I'm just thinking that unless the server has a paper
trail of some sort we could lower the amount we need to get in other
donations.
(20:40:20) Nathan Kennedy: it's not a great switch.
(20:40:44) Justin Leitgeb: vote?
(20:40:51) Davor Ocelic: ntk, I thought it wa.
(20:40:53) Nathan Kennedy: bkhl are you thinking about the donations
that adam is trying to drum up?
(20:40:53) Davor Ocelic: it was.
ntk ntk_ ntk_logger
(20:40:59) Nathan Kennedy: hm
(20:41:00) bkhl: ntk: exactly.
(20:41:01) Nathan Kennedy: vote on what
(20:41:06) Justin Leitgeb: docelic: I think it's old. at one point, it
might have been worth something
(20:41:17) Justin Leitgeb: ntk: selling the switch
(20:41:20) Adam Chlipala: leitgebj, do you have space to hold the Dell
and the switch at your apartment for a month or so?
(20:41:23) Nathan Kennedy: sell the switch, +1
(20:41:27) Nathan Kennedy: at any price.
(20:41:52) Justin Leitgeb: Smerdyakov: It would have to be sold pretty soon
(20:42:13) Adam Chlipala: leitgebj, can you answer my literal
question, if I remove the "or so" at the end? :)
(20:42:17) Nathan Kennedy: he is not like me, happy to live with an
enormous dell server in a dungeon and moving it from place to place
(20:42:28) Davor Ocelic: ntk :)
(20:42:33) Justin Leitgeb: Smerdyakov: I do have a wife
(20:42:37) Nathan Kennedy: see
(20:42:43) Davor Ocelic: leitgebj, the question is do you have space
(20:42:46) Nathan Kennedy: that is your answer
(20:42:46) Adam Chlipala: leitgebj, can you please answer?
(20:42:52) Nathan Kennedy: that means "no.
(20:42:53) Nathan Kennedy: "
(20:42:58) Justin Leitgeb: I can keep it for a month
(20:43:06) Adam Chlipala: leitgebj, it's OK to say no, and it just
confuses things to give reasons.  No one expects you to volunteer for
anything.
(20:43:17) bkhl: Can I suggest a decision to vote on?
(20:43:19) Justin Leitgeb: No, it's fine for a month in my place
(20:43:29) Justin Leitgeb: but I want to vote on selling the old
equipment immediately
(20:43:29) Nathan Kennedy: bkhl: what is it, suggest it please.
(20:43:36) Justin Leitgeb: in the interim, it would be in my apartment
(20:43:37) Davor Ocelic: bkhl, just a second
(20:43:43) Nathan Kennedy: i think we should sell it as soon as it comes out
(20:43:51) Nathan Kennedy: as soon as we can get rid of it
(20:44:06) Davor Ocelic: So what's your idea Adam?
(20:44:06) Nathan Kennedy: we should be happy if justin will carry out
the transaction for free
(20:44:50) Justin Leitgeb: ntk: agreed.  let's take it out
immediately, I'll hold it in my apt for a month or until it's sold.
if either item is not sold in a month, I'll look for free recycling
options
(20:45:08) Nathan Kennedy: we can't take it out immediately, unless we
have a replacement switch immediately
(20:45:10) Adam Chlipala: I was just suggesting that folks might be
overstating the urgency of having a plan for what to do with the
equipment right away after removal.
(20:45:52) Nathan Kennedy: but otherwise, yes
(20:46:08) Davor Ocelic: Okay, let's vote on a plan to put both the
unused Dell and the switch (when it is replaced) for sale, and using
any income from it to cover part of hcoop's balance difference?
(20:46:12) Davor Ocelic: +1
(20:46:20) Justin Leitgeb: +1
(20:46:21) bkhl: +1
(20:46:28) Adam Chlipala: +1
(20:46:46) Nathan Kennedy: +2
(20:47:20) Davor Ocelic: Good. Another item on the list is a
user-accessible ssh machine that supports logging in with ssh keys.
(20:47:31) Adam Chlipala: Hold on.
(20:47:37) Adam Chlipala: Who is going to do what to make the last
item actually happen?
(20:47:47) Davor Ocelic: Justin already said he will do it all.
(20:47:47) Nathan Kennedy: why is that a matter of board concern?
(20:47:50) Justin Leitgeb: We need to decide on a new switch first
(20:47:53) Nathan Kennedy: that seems like a sysadmin consern
(20:48:07) bkhl: Well, not if we are to buy a machine for it.
(20:48:08) Adam Chlipala: No, choosing and buying a new switch seems
like a board concern to me.
(20:48:19) Justin Leitgeb: can we approve the purchase of a new switch now?
(20:48:20) Nathan Kennedy: a new machine just to support sshkeys?
(20:48:33) Nathan Kennedy: leitgebj: we just did, unless i missed something.
(20:48:35) Adam Chlipala: ntk, please hold off.
(20:48:38) Davor Ocelic: ntk, we''ll get to it in after the current discussion
(20:48:43) Nathan Kennedy: ok
(20:48:43) Justin Leitgeb: ntk: ok
(20:48:52) Adam Chlipala: So, what, we're approving leitgebj to order
any switch he wants for whatever price and get reimbursed?
(20:48:58) Nathan Kennedy: yes
(20:49:04) Davor Ocelic: No
(20:49:06) Nathan Kennedy: well, up to $X, where X<=500
(20:49:12) Justin Leitgeb:
http://www.amazon.com/Netgear-GS108-ProSafe-Gigabit-Ethernet/dp/B00006RVPW/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1223835738&sr=8-1
(20:49:17) Justin Leitgeb: look reasonable?
(20:49:23) Davor Ocelic: My idea was that we would post a few links on
the sysadmin thread and reach a decision later.
(20:49:28) Davor Ocelic: based on that.
(20:49:28) Nathan Kennedy: can we get a shorter url
(20:49:44) Justin Leitgeb: http://bit.ly/2sleJy
(20:49:50) Nathan Kennedy: thanks
(20:50:03) Adam Chlipala: docelic, that stuff never happens unless we
make a plan for who is responsible for starting the discussion and
judging when the discussion is stalled.
(20:50:20) Nathan Kennedy: is 8 ports enough?
(20:50:27) Nathan Kennedy: i guess os
(20:50:46) Nathan Kennedy: is there a 10-port one that is similar?
(20:51:07) Nathan Kennedy: we can't go wrong for $38.99,  at that
price i see no reason to discuss it.
(20:51:18) Davor Ocelic: I believe 8 will do fine fo r now.
(20:51:51) Adam Chlipala: I'm willing to approve buying a switch for
$38.99, if others are sure it will perform adequately for our needs.
(20:52:07) Nathan Kennedy: it is not going to be a bottleneck.
(20:52:22) Davor Ocelic: I just looked at the specifications, it seems alright.
(20:52:31) Nathan Kennedy: it has  no disadvantages versus our current
switch.  we have not used any of the advanced features of that switch,
at all (baltar)
(20:52:36) Nathan Kennedy: as far as i know
(20:52:37) Davor Ocelic: Ok, please vote on buying the exact switch at
http://bit.ly/2sleJy
(20:52:43) Nathan Kennedy: +5
(20:52:44) Davor Ocelic: +1
(20:52:44) Justin Leitgeb: +1
(20:52:53) Davor Ocelic: ntk, please use +1
(20:52:55) Adam Chlipala: +1
(20:52:55) Nathan Kennedy: +1
(20:53:09) Adam Chlipala: Yes, please no jokes anymore during the
meeting without clear warning.
(20:53:25) Davor Ocelic: Good. Another item on the list is a
user-accessible ssh machine that supports logging in with ssh keys.
(20:53:36) Adam Chlipala: I don't think we are at all in a position to
address that concern yet.
(20:53:38) Davor Ocelic: I suggest we postpone this until we have a
new hosting plan
(20:53:44) Nathan Kennedy: bkhl do you have an opinion?
(20:53:52) Justin Leitgeb: what about starting an EC2 instance for this
purpose?
(20:53:53) bkhl: I was about to say earlier,
(20:54:04) bkhl: that a separate machine for shell access might not be
a bad idea anyway.
(20:54:11) Adam Chlipala: leitgebj, did you see my list message asking
you to summarize that option, including pricing and features?
(20:54:17) Justin Leitgeb: Smerdyakov: yes
(20:54:18) bkhl: To remove things like people rsyncing their backups
and whatnot from the web server.
(20:54:22) Nathan Kennedy: that was our plan from a while ago anyway,
as i recall, the dell was intended for this.
(20:54:24) Adam Chlipala: leitgebj, did you send such a summary?
(20:54:35) Nathan Kennedy: not just for sshkey access, but for shell access.
(20:54:39) Justin Leitgeb: Smerdyakov: no, I was planning on
summarizing here if we needed more details
(20:54:50) Justin Leitgeb: basically, we'd be looking at $40/month for
such an instance
(20:54:53) Davor Ocelic: Let's discuss Justin's EC2 thing first, then
we'll move onto further discussion
(20:54:54) bkhl: But I agree we should put this plan on the shelf
until we know where we live in a year from now.
(20:54:56) Justin Leitgeb: We could do it now
(20:54:59) Adam Chlipala: leitgebj, too bad.  Forcing yourself to
compose an e-mail would have led to a nicer structure. :(
(20:55:22) Nathan Kennedy: i oppose using EC2.  i would rather go grab
another virtual server from the hosting coop if we were going that
route
(20:55:30) Nathan Kennedy: i really don't want to use amazon.
(20:55:34) bkhl: Smerdyakov: (joke) you're such a literary snob.
(20:55:50) Davor Ocelic: leitgebj, could you send the email about this
relatively soon , giving links & pointers to more information?
(20:56:07) Adam Chlipala: leitgebj, are you saying that $40/mo. would
cover every service we offer at present, at the same or better level
of reliability, etc.?
(20:56:08) Justin Leitgeb: I wanted to know more about objections to it
(20:56:21) Justin Leitgeb: I don't know enough of the technical specs
to really talk about using ec2 here
(20:56:22) Adam Chlipala: leitgebj, that is, we could ditch all our
present hardware.
(20:56:23) Michael Olson: tech.coop is pretty slow.  i'd rather not
get an SSH machine from them
(20:56:38) Nathan Kennedy: it probably seems slower to you due to latency to GB
(20:56:52) Justin Leitgeb: Smerdyakov: no, that would be one machine,
with 1.7 GB of memory, and no persistent storage
(20:56:55) Davor Ocelic: its slow here too
(20:56:59) Nathan Kennedy: hm
(20:57:05) Nathan Kennedy: we do have a wimpy vps from them though i think
(20:57:05) Adam Chlipala: leitgebj, I only care about hearing figures
for complete solutions.
(20:57:19) Nathan Kennedy: EC2 is slow
(20:57:20) Justin Leitgeb: Smerdyakov: I don't think that we would
want a complete solution
(20:57:24) Nathan Kennedy: i think it would be slower
(20:57:35) Justin Leitgeb: my idea is to only put certain services on
an as-needed basis on ec2
(20:57:36) Adam Chlipala: leitgebj, well, please tell me exactly what
you think we want, because it's clear that I don't understand you yet.
(20:57:41) bkhl: Clearly we are not prepared for this discussion yet.
(20:58:06) Justin Leitgeb: we need more processing horsepower for
email, and a new shell machine.  Take one of these, and start an ec2
instance
(20:58:10) Nathan Kennedy: i sent an email outlining my objections to
ec2 and cloud computing generally to -sysadmin previously
(20:58:12) Justin Leitgeb: see how it works
(20:59:01) Michael Olson: i absolutely do not want to put email on EC2
(20:59:17) Nathan Kennedy: i don't either.
(20:59:18) Michael Olson: since we need fast local disk for the AFS cache
(20:59:36) Justin Leitgeb: mwolson: you can stripe EBS volumes to get
fast local disks
(20:59:46) Justin Leitgeb: you should be able to get any performance you need
(20:59:56) Justin Leitgeb: they're really fast
(20:59:58) Adam Chlipala: I continue to think that we should be
talking about getting a completely new hardware setup soon.
(21:00:14) Nathan Kennedy: you are referring to a new datacenter also, yes?
(21:00:19) Michael Olson: also, people have really high expectations
for email reliability, so i don't want to take a chance on anything
that much outside of our control
(21:00:20) Adam Chlipala: ntk, yes.
(21:00:24) Nathan Kennedy: i never did make that wiki page i was going to
(21:00:41) Justin Leitgeb: mwolson: ok, that point I can understand better
(21:00:56) Nathan Kennedy: that is another agenda item but we do have
to keep it in mind when planning nearterm upgrades
(21:02:16) Adam Chlipala: I think it doesn't make sense to invest
man-hours in figuring out EC2 usage, given what I think we should do
next big-picture-wise.
(21:02:17) Nathan Kennedy: docelic: where are we at?
(21:02:46) Nathan Kennedy: perhaps it doesn't make sense to invest in
any shell server other than perhaps another vps either than
(21:03:24) Adam Chlipala: I don't think it makes sense to sign up for
any more virtualized anything.
(21:03:50) Adam Chlipala: We should try to get current services
reasonably stable and then switch to planning a completely new
installation.
(21:03:50) Davor Ocelic: I am in favor of finding a better hosting
plan, which would give us a few of the machines (new ones) on lease,
plus colocation of course, for a price comparable to what we're paying
now
(21:04:03) Davor Ocelic: I think that's what Smerdyakov was suggesting, right?
(21:04:10) Adam Chlipala: Yes.
(21:04:19) Nathan Kennedy: i think we were looking for a new town
where we could think of hiring staff
(21:04:31) Davor Ocelic: In that scenario, we can put shell server on hold.
(21:04:32) Nathan Kennedy: with a lower COL than NYC
(21:04:45) Adam Chlipala: That's right.  I hope we all understand my
big-picture proposal now and can finish the current issue with that in
mind.
(21:04:48) Nathan Kennedy: yes
(21:04:49) Nathan Kennedy: i agree
(21:04:55) Justin Leitgeb: ok, let's do it
(21:04:55) Nathan Kennedy: -1 on shell server for now
(21:04:58) Adam Chlipala: I suggest tabling the shell server.
(21:05:07) Justin Leitgeb: Yes, I think we have to do that for the moment
(21:05:11) bkhl: +1, on the tabling...
(21:05:17) Nathan Kennedy: ok it is unanimous
(21:05:22) Davor Ocelic: +1
(21:05:26) Davor Ocelic: Ok, next agenda item:
(21:05:45) Davor Ocelic: One that we have skipped, it was second on the list:
(21:05:57) Davor Ocelic: Summarize the reasons why we have had 3 or 4
membership cancellations in under 2 weeks, and see if we can improve
anything else besides the things we discussed.
(21:06:10) Adam Chlipala: The reasons are the lack of standard UNIX
interfaces and the poor performance of our systems.
(21:06:30) Nathan Kennedy: standard unix interfaces == AFS/Kerberos, right?
(21:06:41) Nathan Kennedy: i mean, the lack of it
(21:06:50) Adam Chlipala: ntk, more or less.
(21:06:58) Nathan Kennedy: hm
(21:07:02) Davor Ocelic: ntk, 1) ssh keys, 2) having to go through domtool
(21:07:08) Nathan Kennedy: ok
(21:07:10) Davor Ocelic: ntk, 3) having to refer to wiki
(21:07:11) Nathan Kennedy: those too
(21:07:30) Adam Chlipala: I don't think "having to go through domtool"
can really be blamed here for any but a handful of all departures so
far.
(21:07:31) Nathan Kennedy: 3) is an exaggeration i think
(21:07:35) Adam Chlipala: Kerberos is a way bigger problem.
(21:07:47) Nathan Kennedy: kerb and afs permissions.  fs, i think
(21:07:54) Nathan Kennedy: fs setacl, fs listacl
(21:08:03) bkhl: Related a bit both to domtool and our performance is
that domtool lately has been slow to work with.
(21:08:04) Davor Ocelic: Smerdyakov, I am summarizing the reports from
the last 4 people who kind of left near to each other
(21:08:05) Nathan Kennedy: instead of chmod
(21:08:19) Adam Chlipala: On all of these issues, I think there is
nothing we can do in our present hardware situation, so we table the
discussion.
(21:08:46) Davor Ocelic: Pretty much, yes.
(21:08:52) iriefrank: i think the performance problems are more
important when we talk about member retention
(21:08:56) Nathan Kennedy: yeah i'm not sure how much there is that we
can do about the cancellation issues, other than better
handholding/support
(21:09:11) Davor Ocelic: iriefrank, most of this meeting is about
performance upgrades
(21:09:12) Adam Chlipala: ntk, I don't take that attitude.
(21:09:17) Nathan Kennedy: there are also a couple members we have to
boot due to nonpayment
(21:09:21) Davor Ocelic: I suppose we covered that aspect through
that, you agree?
(21:09:29) Nathan Kennedy: Smerdyakov: maybe longer term, but i mean
at the moment
(21:09:31) Adam Chlipala: ntk, I think performance and Kerberos are
both legitimate objections, not complaints from ignorant members.
(21:09:52) Adam Chlipala: ntk, we will follow the agenda in order, please.
(21:09:57) Nathan Kennedy: we made the design decision to go with AFS
(21:10:00) Davor Ocelic: Performance and ssh keys
(21:10:03) iriefrank: yeah i know, i'm just chiming in to say that
lack of standard insterfaces isn't so much of a problem once we do
what has been discussed at this meeting
(21:10:07) Nathan Kennedy: kerberos is part and parcel of that
(21:10:23) Davor Ocelic: iriefrank, sure, I agree, but we need to go
over the items anyway and discuss them
(21:10:37) Adam Chlipala: OK, now I think people are just discussing
irrelevant stuff.  I think we've agreed that we need new hardware to
improve the objections, so we should move on.
(21:10:44) Davor Ocelic: there were no objections to kerberos per-se,
except the problem with ssh keys that it prevents using
(21:11:00) Adam Chlipala: docelic, that's not right.  People have
problems running persistent processes.
(21:11:01) Nathan Kennedy: the agenda item we are on is reflecting on
why people have cancelled
(21:11:06) bkhl: Well, when we move we need to also discuss if we are
to keep using AFS and all that.
(21:11:09) Nathan Kennedy: i don't know what agenda item Smerdyakov is on
(21:11:14) bkhl: But that is also not an issue for today.
(21:11:18) Adam Chlipala: ntk, I think the answer is completely
uncontroversial and was resolved minutes ago.
(21:11:25) Nathan Kennedy: we never closed discussion
(21:11:29) Nathan Kennedy: are we closing discussion and moving on?
(21:11:36) Adam Chlipala: We should close discussion and move on.
(21:11:46) bkhl: Does anyone having any suggestions on what to do
about member retention,
(21:11:52) Davor Ocelic: bkhl, afs will allow us to do the next
expansion/move without any changes needed to be done on user part, so
by all means I suppose we're sticking with it.
(21:11:58) Nathan Kennedy: i'm for it, i don't have all day.
(21:12:00) Davor Ocelic: Re. member retention, not much.
(21:12:03) bkhl: that _can_ be done before the new hardware discussion?
(21:12:17) Justin Leitgeb: bkhl: no
(21:12:38) Adam Chlipala: Please don't say "not much."  Either make a
concrete suggestion, or let's move on.
(21:12:38) Davor Ocelic: bkhl,  both performance and ssh keys cant be
solved before new hosting plan, so we're stuck with what we have for
now.
(21:12:48) Davor Ocelic: Ok, next item on the list:
(21:12:56) Davor Ocelic: Determine how things are going with automated
backups to rsync.net.
(21:13:00) Davor Ocelic: Mike already answered,
(21:13:14) Davor Ocelic: saying he will report tomorrow. Right mwolson ?
(21:14:03) Michael Olson: yes
(21:14:10) Davor Ocelic: Next item on the list:
(21:14:14) Davor Ocelic: Paid staff - Postponed discussion until we're
in a realistic position to do something about it.
(21:14:31) Nathan Kennedy: should we at least talk about forming a committee?
(21:14:36) Nathan Kennedy: to explore this?
(21:14:48) Adam Chlipala: ntk, we haven't even had a serious
hcoop-discuss thread yet.
(21:14:52) Nathan Kennedy: alright
(21:15:01) Adam Chlipala: ntk, I don't think it makes sense to "form a
committee" if we don't know that that won't work.
(21:15:03) Nathan Kennedy: we can do that without a formal meeting
discussion i suppose, anyway.
(21:15:27) Nathan Kennedy: +1 postpone
(21:15:35) Davor Ocelic: ntk, we've had great member input on the
mailing lists, so there's no need for anything official like a
committee
(21:15:51) Davor Ocelic: My suggestion is to start looking for options
and periodically discuss on ML
(21:15:55) Adam Chlipala: I volunteer to start a -discuss thread on
redoing our colocaiton and personnel situation.
(21:15:57) Nathan Kennedy: ok
(21:16:24) Davor Ocelic: Please vote for postponing staff issue for
now, but starting a thread on it and moving somewhere in that
direction.
(21:16:27) Davor Ocelic: +1
(21:16:29) Adam Chlipala: +1
(21:16:30) Nathan Kennedy: +1
(21:16:30) Justin Leitgeb: +1
(21:16:30) bkhl: +1
(21:16:43) Adam Chlipala: We should also know exactly what we are
going to plan for improving our current set-up.
(21:16:59) Davor Ocelic: I will add information about that in a reply
to your mail Smerdyakov
(21:17:00) Adam Chlipala: I can see it as topping out at having that
new mail server running and verified back-ups working.
(21:17:16) Davor Ocelic: Good, at the end two smaller issues -
(21:17:37) Davor Ocelic: 1) Smerdyakov could  you please give me the
peer1 access info like you already did?
(21:17:47) Adam Chlipala: docelic, what?  You mean you lost it?
(21:18:02) Davor Ocelic: Misplaced, shortly after deleting the file.
(21:18:09) Nathan Kennedy: that can be taken care of afterwards, what's 2)
(21:18:09) Adam Chlipala: docelic, OK, I'll do the same thing again.
(21:18:16) Davor Ocelic: And issue 2)
(21:18:21) Davor Ocelic: Vote delinquent members "ankur" and "harsha"
out of the co-op
(21:18:28) Davor Ocelic: Adam could you summarize their status?
(21:19:01) bkhl: Has anything changed since you mailed us about them?
(21:19:04) Adam Chlipala: Next dues payment would leave them owing
more than they've sent us.
(21:19:25) Adam Chlipala: Both responded to previous vigorous attempts
at communication by admitting that they are triaging keeping up with
HCoop stuff in favor of other parts of their lives.
(21:19:45) Adam Chlipala: That's all.
(21:20:04) Nathan Kennedy: that's good enough for me.  let's keep
their files in case they update payments and want to rejoin shortly.
+1.
(21:20:12) Davor Ocelic: Yes, files will be kept.
(21:20:14) Davor Ocelic: +1
(21:20:17) Justin Leitgeb: +1
(21:20:26) bkhl: +1
(21:20:28) Adam Chlipala: +1
(21:20:36) Davor Ocelic: Final quick issue, Adam what happened with
payment from basavesh which got cancelled by paypal?
(21:20:54) Adam Chlipala: docelic, I think you're remembering it wrong.
(21:21:03) Adam Chlipala: docelic, Checkout couldn't verify his card
info, but PayPal worked fine.
(21:21:11) bkhl: "Add reverse DNS resolve for krunk.hcoop.net "?
(21:21:17) Davor Ocelic: Aha, so his payment went through correctly later?
(21:21:28) Davor Ocelic: bkhl, I'm doing that with the info Smerdyakov
will provide me
(21:21:30) Adam Chlipala: bkhl, already handled.  docelic really meant
"get back the password for doing this, which I lost." :)
(21:21:31) Nathan Kennedy: also, sjh wants to get his mail/files out
of the fyodor backup onto mire and get his password changed there,
preferables without adamc yelling at him.
(21:21:47) Nathan Kennedy: i don't know if anything has been done with that yet
(21:22:13) Adam Chlipala: ntk, I'm going to pretend you didn't say
that.  If he can't be bothered to use some contact medium besides IRC,
then I can't be bothered to help.
(21:23:03) Nathan Kennedy: i think we should be able to do this
without having adam put out in the process
(21:23:05) Davor Ocelic: ntk, Smerdyakov : regardless of sjh's request
that I didn't even know of (so obviously he chose the wrong
communication medium),  how would we go about it? should he file a new
application to get  new password?
(21:23:14) Nathan Kennedy: that was the issue
(21:23:33) Adam Chlipala: ntk, please tell people to e-mail
admins@hcoop.net in all situations where they don't know their
passwords.
(21:23:34) Nathan Kennedy: i didn't know what to tell him, he is still a member
(21:23:40) Nathan Kennedy: he just needs to reauthenticate somehow
(21:24:02) Nathan Kennedy: i told him to do so, so i guess that should
take care of it.  probabyl he will have to make another payment anyway
(21:24:06) Nathan Kennedy: alright
(21:24:18) Davor Ocelic: make another payment AND submit a new application
(21:24:28) Davor Ocelic: so that he gets a randomly generated password
(21:24:33) Adam Chlipala: I don't think a new application is right at all.
(21:24:44) Adam Chlipala: It's at least an abuse of the database schema.
(21:24:58) Adam Chlipala: And I can't see how it really helps, security-wise.
(21:25:18) Davor Ocelic: Smerdyakov, how would we transfer the new
password to sjh except in that way?
(21:25:28) bkhl: Is this still a board meeting in and in that case
what is the question?
(21:25:34) bkhl: s/in//
(21:25:37) Nathan Kennedy: i think we should adjourn
(21:25:38) Davor Ocelic: unless he submits gpg key with paypal/
(21:25:43) Adam Chlipala: docelic, any method is OK if it happens in realtime.
(21:25:52) Davor Ocelic: ntk, bkhl let's resolve this issue and we're done
then.
(21:26:17) Davor Ocelic: Smerdyakov,  okay we'll talk about it later
when sjh sends mail to admins@.
(21:26:19) Davor Ocelic:
(21:26:33) Davor Ocelic: Good. Any other items, HCoop folks?
(21:26:35) Justin Leitgeb: I have a quick question about purchases
before we adjourn
(21:26:45) Nathan Kennedy: pwd
(21:26:53) Justin Leitgeb: Can I get the switch we mentioned and be reimbursed?
(21:27:11) bkhl: I think that was understood, if you get something in
the price class of that thing on Amazon.
(21:27:13) unknown_lamer: are you sure the switch has enough memory
etc to handle heavy afs traffic
(21:27:35) Nathan Kennedy: u_l: that would have been a nice question
for earlier, but i think it should.
(21:27:44) unknown_lamer: sorry I wasn't around earlier
(21:28:03) unknown_lamer: we have to make sure ... "desktop" routers
tend to not be quite as robust
(21:28:30) Davor Ocelic: Hi Clinton. It's not that much of a heavy
traffic (due to caching etc.). Also since the switch is gigabit, I
assume it could handle 100mbit well
(21:28:32) Nathan Kennedy: this isn't a core router, it's just for our
internet link
(21:28:44) bkhl: leitgebj: how about if you mail -discuss when you
have decided on a likely model for feedback. But just for feedback, if
you haven't gotten any reasonably objections in a day or two after
that order it.
(21:28:49) Davor Ocelic: ntk, is it? Aren't all machines connected to it?
(21:28:53) Nathan Kennedy: yes
(21:28:56) Justin Leitgeb: docelic: yes
(21:29:05) Nathan Kennedy: but in any event, it's a lot newer than the
one we are using now
(21:29:08) Nathan Kennedy: even if it isn't as bulky
(21:29:29) Justin Leitgeb: OK, I also need a new kvm cable for
keyboard to replace a messed up one currently in the cabinet.  Can I
go ahead and order it?
(21:29:54) Michael Olson: \o/
(21:29:58) Nathan Kennedy: our switch now has no gigabit support, i am
sure.  and i think that it should be fine, although i don't see why
you couldn't order it using the hcoop debit card
(21:30:02) Nathan Kennedy: you are our treasurer and all
(21:30:05) Justin Leitgeb: Think it's male/male ps2.. does that sound right?
(21:30:29) Nathan Kennedy: yes
(21:30:38) Adam Chlipala: ntk, it's all about ship-to addresses.
(21:30:39) Nathan Kennedy: that is correct
(21:30:45) Nathan Kennedy: oh ok
(21:30:52) Adam Chlipala: ntk, we've been through this, and found no
way for anyone but leitgebj to order hardware that gets to him or Peer
1.
(21:30:53) Nathan Kennedy: wells fargo is still giving us crap
(21:30:54) Justin Leitgeb: oh, and a pack of 5 or so short (like one
foot) patch cables
(21:31:24) Nathan Kennedy: by all means
(21:31:43) Davor Ocelic: Do we need a proper Board vote for the cables?
(21:31:49) Nathan Kennedy: i am sure you could order a pack of those
online for what i paid for one at radio shack while i was working
there
(21:31:58) bkhl: Sounds like running expenses to me.
(21:32:07) Nathan Kennedy: if we haven't given him a budget then
technically we do
(21:32:14) Justin Leitgeb: bkhl: I don't know.  do we need to vote on these?
(21:32:26) Nathan Kennedy: i always had my expenses ratified either
before or after the fact when i bought stuff for the cabinet
ntk ntk__ ntk_logger
(21:32:32) bkhl: ntk is probably right.
(21:32:33) Nathan Kennedy: by the board
(21:32:37) Adam Chlipala: leitgebj, what would the cost for all these
additional items be?
(21:32:39) bkhl: +1 on the cables then.
(21:32:51) Justin Leitgeb: Smerdyakov: I don't know
(21:32:53) Nathan Kennedy: +1
(21:32:58) Justin Leitgeb: < $20?
(21:33:08) Adam Chlipala: I +1 for under $20.
(21:33:13) Justin Leitgeb: +1
(21:33:31) Davor Ocelic: +1 for <$20
(21:33:31) Justin Leitgeb: I'll get them at the same time as the
switch, once I wait for feedback on that item as discussed in this
meeting
(21:34:10) Justin Leitgeb: ok, no more last-minute questions here
then.  thanks folks
(21:34:21) Davor Ocelic: Anything else?
(21:34:25) Adam Chlipala: Not from me
(21:34:31) bkhl: Swing the club.
(21:34:31) bkhl: Fast.
(21:34:33) ***Nathan Kennedy moves to adjourn immediately
(21:34:41) Davor Ocelic: If not, thank you everyone for participating.
I will update the Wiki, and you ntk please post meeting minutes.