18:01 < ntk> Okay, it is 18:00 UTC
18:01 < Smerdyakov> Yes.  We are starting now.
18:01 < ntk> again, missing docelic :-(
18:01 < ntk> he was here a few hours ago
18:01 < Smerdyakov> I'm not waiting for anyone.
18:01 < ntk> alright
18:02 < ntk> seems to me we are here to discuss moving to Peer1,
18:02 < Smerdyakov> I would like to point to: https://members.hcoop.net/portal/pledge
18:02 < Smerdyakov> Down to $5.21!
18:02 < ntk> I think that nonpledging users are probably not reading this meeting log.
18:03 < bkhl> My economic situation is _really_ sticky, so I removed my pledge. Sorry...
18:03 < Smerdyakov> If you think I was trying to coax people into pledging more, you misread me.
18:03 < ntk> bkhl: no need to justify it
18:03 < Smerdyakov> I was announcing how close we are.
18:03 < Smerdyakov> 7 more shares needed to reach $5.
18:04 < offby1> that pledging system is interesting.
18:04 < ntk> my objection to the pledge system in the first place was the danger of turning HCoop into some sort of campaign fundraising rally, but if this works as a compromise intermediate method temporarily, it's okay with me
18:04 < ntk> nobody should feel obligated to pledge more than they want to
18:04 < ntk> or can afford, for heavens sake
18:05 < ntk> anyway
18:05 < ntk> as I stated in my previous email, I spoke to Ray on the phone this past week
18:05 < Smerdyakov> So I think there's a good chance we'll reach $5 just through new members before we're ready to switch over
18:05 < ntk> he assured me that he has the machine and still wants to donate it, just needs to get over to UPS and ship it
18:05 < Smerdyakov> ntk, did he give a timeline?
18:06 < ntk> I told him "before saturday would be nice" and he said "within the next few days, it is good to have saturday as a deadline" or words to that effect
18:06 < ntk> and he said he would log in and check his emails, he's just been busy,
18:07 < ntk> however, I still haven't got an email from him that he shipped it, and it looks like he still hasn't logged into fyodor
18:07 < Smerdyakov> OK.  I don't suppose you asked him to let you know when it was shipped?
18:07 < ntk> I did.
18:07 < ntk> I told him to send me a tracking number
18:07 < ntk> so i could know when I need to be around to sign for it
18:07 < Smerdyakov> Probably time to call him again early next week if you don't hear from him this weekend, and emphasize that he is holding everyone up.
18:07 < ntk> okay
18:08 < ntk> would it be best for me to call him up, or for someone new this time?
18:08 < ntk> e.g., you.
18:08 < ntk> to be sure, I'll do it
18:08 < Smerdyakov> I don't get along well with phones.
18:08 < ntk> i just don't know what is most appropriate or effective
18:08 < ntk> alright, I will do it, tonight.
18:09 < Smerdyakov> Well, hey, I was suggesting after the weekend, but I won't stop you.
18:09 < ntk> okay, I'll do it Monday then.
18:09 < ntk> anyway, originally this meeting was scheduled writing off the possibility of this donation, and now it does hopefully look like we will get it
18:09 < ntk> ASAP
18:09 < ntk> what about upgrades?
18:10 < Smerdyakov> I'm so ignorant that I don't have anything to say about that.
18:10 < ntk> I think we should at least add another or upgrade the disks, since repartitioning or upgrading harddrives is a pain in the ass, whereas slapping in more memory or CPU requires only 10 minutes of downtime
18:10 < ntk> currently it has one cpu, one harddrive, and 1 gig of memory
18:10 < ntk> it can go up to 2 cpus with 8 gig of memory per system board
18:11 < Smerdyakov> Not directly related: I'm thinking we should consider ignoring the fact that it's a 64-bit machine, since not all packages have 64-bit versions.
18:11 < ntk> hm
18:11 < ntk> ah, yes, opteron is 64-bit
18:11 < ntk> so you are basically suggesting doing everything in 32-bit mode?
18:12 < Smerdyakov> Suggesting using the 32-bit x86 Debian distribution
18:12 < Kuril> 64-bit isn't the panacea some would have us believe... unless you're dealing with huge amounts of RAM.  The 2.6 kernel can handle 4GB ok iirc
18:12 < Smerdyakov> Or making sure we can install any 32-bit package in a pinch....
18:12 < ntk> i don't know too much about that, but if there is potential for users requesting 32-bit-only packages, then that seems logical
18:12 < ntk> can't you have 32-bit packages on 64-bit debian somehow?
18:12  * ntk is ignorant
18:13 < ntk> but can't you have both libraries?
18:13 < ntk> maybe not
18:13 < Kuril> Not unless you have equivalent 32bit libraries.
18:13 < Smerdyakov> The big one I'm thinking about is MLton, which has no x86-64 package.
18:13 < ntk> unless there's a big performance hit in issue, i say we stick with 32-bit
18:13 < bkhl> Sounds like more bother than it's worth to us.
18:13 < ntk> for now, anyway, people are not too familiar with 64-bit
18:13 < bkhl> I mean, it's not like we run a lot of huge dataintensive applications.
18:13 < Kuril> Yeah, it's not like we're doing scientific computations and using 1 terrabyte of RAM.
18:13 < ntk> right, we certainly should not
18:14 < Smerdyakov> This machine's role is very mix-and-matchable, so it shouldn't be so hard to change later.
18:14 < ntk> and 32-bit is more ram-conservative, iirc, and that is something we ARE concerned about
18:14 < bkhl> Sounds like we are in agreement.
18:14 < Kuril> We just need to be sure that the kernel is probably configured to take advantage of whatever amounts of RAM it has (through VMSplits)
18:14 < offby1> my hunch: if we don't have a pressing need for 64-bit stuff, don't use it -- because (I suspect) most of us are ignorant of the consequences of switching
18:15 < Kuril> r/probably/properly
18:16 < Smerdyakov> ntk, how much HD space is in the server now?
18:16 < ntk> 1 sec, i'm bringing up his email
18:16 < ntk> "1 15G (30G?) SCSI drive."
18:17 < ntk> so either 15 or 30 gig
18:17 < Smerdyakov> Hm... that would probably be more than enough.
18:17 < ntk> not enough, I think, and we want mirroring
18:17 < Smerdyakov> Yeah, mirroring is good... but that capacity sounds fine.
18:17 < ntk> Justin had suggested that we would want to install a RAID card, I don't know if that is necessary or not at this juncture
18:18 < Smerdyakov> We could certainly start out without it and see what happens.
18:18 < ntk> I guess if all the user-data is going to be network mounted anyway, it shouldn't matter much if there is only 15 or 30 gig locally with software raid?
18:18 < ntk> alright
18:18 < ntk> I don't know if that is a straightforward upgrade though
18:18 < ntk> I guess it should not be too bad even if we had to redo the system
18:18 < ntk> since all the userdata is not on this machine
18:19 < Smerdyakov> Right.  The permanent view should all be in AFS.
18:19 < bkhl> Sorry if I'm slow, but what slot on http://wiki.hcoop.net/wiki/NewSystemHardware is this machine supposed to fill again?
18:19 < Smerdyakov> "New server, for which we need to come up with hardware specifications"
18:19 < ntk> yes
18:19 < bkhl> OK.
18:19 < ntk> the other thing is I don't know what model drive the machine has, or if I will be able to buy the exact same model or have to buy two new drives anyway
18:20 < ntk> in which case it would only make sense to bump up the capacity a smidge
18:20 < ntk> e.g. does software raid function properly if your two drives are not identical? i would think it would create issues
18:20 < Smerdyakov> ntk, yup.  Are you thinking any non-disk-related upgrades make sense right away?
18:21 < ntk> no, I think 1 G memory is going to be seriously insufficient long-run, but it ought to do for a decent period after migration
18:21 < ntk> and like I said that would be a 10 minute upgrade
18:22 < Smerdyakov> So if we skip the RAID card for now, we should have only tiny additional costs for hardware left.
18:22 < ntk> and I thought about CPU usage, but I don't know how likely that is to be a bottleneck, as opposed to RAM, I'm not sure how cpu-bound it is likeyl to be
18:22 < ntk> in any event adding a CPU is easy too, if we have an SMP kernel available
18:22 < ntk> something like a couple hundred bucks, right, and sell the old drive on ebay if necessary
18:22 < Kuril> heck, we could even compile SMP support into the kernel.  There isn't much overhead doing that on a single CPU system.
18:23 < Smerdyakov> We already have donation offers recorded that exceed a couple hundred bucks, so all is well.
18:23 < ntk> one question for Adam before we move on,
18:24 < ntk> I know domtool is pretty much ready to deploy, what about the portal?  how will it integrate into our new setup,
18:24 < ntk> I am particularlyl concerned about the web/disk usage sections, and security settings
18:24 < Smerdyakov> Yeah, it needs some tweaks there.  Doesn't seem to be anything serious.
18:24 < ntk> no?
18:24 < ntk> okay
18:24 < ntk> i'll take your word for it
18:25 < ntk> now supposing then that we do, as I hope, get the server within the next week or so
18:25 < Kuril> we likely are not going to be moving users over the day the server is installed, so there will be time to look at such issues.
18:25 < ntk> the only things I need to go buy are one or two harddrive, some rails and ethernet cables
18:25 < Smerdyakov> I'd like to say that it will be much more convenient for me to work on HCoop after Nov. 14.
18:26 < ntk> ah
18:26 < ntk> so you would prefer to hold off on moving in until then?
18:26 < Smerdyakov> I can possibly dedicate some time before then, but it's kinda scary given the deadlines I have.
18:26 < ntk> well i would not want to scare you
18:26 < ntk> i wonder how docelic and the other admins schedules around that time will be
18:26 < bkhl> Also it would avoid having it all depend on when that server shows up.
18:26 < bkhl> Hopefully.
18:27 < ntk> i will start moving into finals mode around that time, but I am willing to commit to whatever hardware/remote-hands monkey tasks are needed
18:27 < ntk> site-visitation, peer1 negotiation and so-on
18:28 < bkhl> The peer1 one involves a lot of hands-on and hardware, eh?
18:28 < ntk> well
18:28 < bkhl> s/one/negotiations
18:28 < ntk> not so much negotiations
18:28 < ntk> adam can do that as well as me i think
18:28 < ntk> but i will have to somehow haul the two servers, switch etc over to lower manhattan from my house,
18:29 < Smerdyakov> Maybe Justin wants to visit that day and help. :)
18:29 < ntk> and i think i will be responsible for physically installing it in the cabinets, although i am sure they will help
18:29 < ntk> hehe, he is not present right now, but that would be lovely
18:29 < ntk> i would not impose upon him though, he lives way the hell up in buffalo
18:30 < Smerdyakov> OK, so if no one here objects, I'd like to set the weekend after Nov. 14 (that is, Nov. 18 and 19) as the move-in time.
18:30 < ntk> i am guessing it would be best to just bill the co-op for a taxi, unless i can convince a friend to drive me in, which I might be able to do.  i did haul justin's 200 pounds server several miles via bus though so it would not be beyond the pale for me to negotiate the subway system with a few trips, if we want to save the $50-60 bucks or whatever it is
18:31 < Smerdyakov> Don't worry about money at that level.... a few of us would be willing to split the costs.
18:31 < ntk> I don't object, although I would prefer earlier, I don't want us to be wasting money on hosting machines when noone has time to get them truly deploed
18:31 < Kuril> I wouldn't be comfortable with the later.
18:31 < ntk> i would prefer not to either
18:31 < Smerdyakov> Kuril, what?
18:31 < ntk> if the MTA police impounded the server I'd shit a brick
18:32 < Kuril> Smerdyakov, I wouldn't be comfortable with NTK using the subway system to transit the server.
18:32 < Smerdyakov> Kuril, got it
18:32 < ntk> I thank you
18:32 < bkhl> I also don't think we could ask him to go back and forth on the subway hauling stuff all day for us...
18:33 < offby1> ffs, I'll pay his cab fare ...
18:33 < ntk> lol
18:33 < ntk> okay
18:33 -!- jch5 [n=whr@pool-71-124-136-203.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #hcoop
18:34 < offby1> I wonder how I'd do that ...
18:34 < ntk> I guess vis-a-vis peer1, assuming Ray does perform on this donation, things are pretty settled
18:34 < Kuril> Looks like no one objects to Smerdyakov. 
18:34 < ntk> upgrade the hard drives, install 32-bit debian, move into Peer1 in november
18:34 < bkhl> offby1: maybe the bac company sells gift cards on the net? ;-)
18:34 < offby1> .oO ( "bac company" ? )
18:34 < bkhl> cab
18:34 < bkhl> I'm feeling a bit dyslexic today.
18:35 < offby1> ees I
18:36 < Smerdyakov> I would like to see a somewhat detailed schedule of what we do at the move-in time, on the wiki.
18:36 < bkhl> Did we decide on November 18-19?
18:36 < Kuril> No one objected.
18:36 < Smerdyakov> Yes, pending asking on hcoop-discuss.
18:37 < ntk> we will need to talk to Peer1 also
18:37 < bkhl> Right.
18:37 < ntk> I think as soon as hardware is acquired and tested at my place, we should get something signed
18:37 < ntk> or, at least sometime in October
18:38 < Kuril> Probably mid-October, a month should be fine.
18:39 < Kuril> I'd like to have the server run for at least a week prior to hitting the colo to assess its stability
18:39 < Smerdyakov> Kuril, not plural "servers"?
18:40 < ntk> Kuril: unfortunately that is not really possible
18:40 < Kuril> Smerdyakov, sure.
18:41 < bkhl> Anyway, we won't move everything over there right away, it will be a transition.
18:41 < ntk> I had it at a "friend's" house, but even there it would have not been really appropriate to have it running 24/7 with its loud fans.  at my place, it is alright to store for a few months, but the conditions in terms of temperature alone are _not_ within operating range.
18:41 < bkhl> So if something turns up in the first week, the consequences shouldn't be that bad.
18:42 < ntk> Ray's server is supposed to be brand new
18:42 < ntk> rather, one year old with 5 hours of on-time
18:42 < Kuril> OK.
18:43 < bkhl> `"friend"'?
18:43 < Smerdyakov> So are we done?
18:43 < ntk> it is back at my house
18:43 < ntk> along with the switch
18:44 < ntk> for reasons unrelated to the said hardware
18:44 < ntk> yes, i think we are done
18:44 < Smerdyakov> I am going to e-mail hcoop-discuss asking about the acceptability of Nov. 18.
18:45 < Smerdyakov> As well as trying to prod the volunteer sysadmins to document exactly what needs to be done to set up the servers.
18:45 < ntk> ok
18:45 < ntk> and I will call Ray on Monday if I have not heard from him
18:46 < Smerdyakov> And I guess that's it to do for now..?
18:46 < ntk> yes
18:47 < offby1> ntk: so ... would you genuinely like me to pay cab fare?
18:47 < jch5> one quick question: when will any of this first impact lowly peon users like me?
18:47 < offby1> I'm happy to
18:47 < offby1> jch5: good q :-)
18:47 < ntk> offby1, you are getting ahead of yourself
18:47 < offby1> ntk: fine
18:47 < ntk> who knows, I might be able to bum a ride with a friend going into the city
18:47 < offby1> ntk: but holler at me if you'd like me to later
18:47 < ntk> ok
18:47 < Kuril> I'd guess soon as the contract is signed and payments start going to Peer1
18:48 < ntk> can we adjourn the meeting, or does jch/Kuril want to continue this line of questions on the record?
18:48 < offby1> will I be able to do reasonably compute-intensive stuff (like building from tarballs) on some hccop box after the move?
18:48 < Kuril> I have nothing else to say.
18:48 < Smerdyakov> offby1, yes, on the shell server, to be installed later.
18:48 < offby1> oh goody
18:48 < ntk> yes, probably abulafia
18:48 < jch5> just for planning...both financial and web site
18:49 < Smerdyakov> jch5, there should be no more than a month of paying 3 providers for hosting, and it's unclear how that will be arranged in that period.
18:49 < ntk> well, I guess in mid-november your monthly costs will bump up to something around $5 or whatever multiple of that you have pledged to
18:50 < Smerdyakov> jch5, after that, I'm planning to find a small group willing to pay InterServer costs.  We will ship Abulafia to ntk, and then it's just $5/mo. or less for Peer1.
18:50 < ntk> and then, probably sometime in December or, maybe as late as January, you will need to be migrating your websites to the new setup
18:50 < ntk> eventually Interserver will go offline too
18:50 < jch5> that sounds fine...by december I hope to be back in FLA
18:51 < ntk> ok, meeting over?
18:51 < offby1> fine with me
18:51 < jch5> thanks! that was my only query
18:51 < Smerdyakov> Yes.